Philadelphia 2035 (York, Willow Grove, Washington: cats, apartments, lease)

[ilovephilly79]

Originally Posted by cpomp

Parking I agree, and Conshohocken is still quite disjointed. It doesn't offer a cohesive live, work, play lifestyle (even though it technically offers it). I think the KoP town center does a better job since it is a true attempt.

Traffic concerns are largely exaggerated. A great book called Walkable City: How Downtown Can Save America, One Step at a Time Book by Jeff Speck has a section devoted to the horrid "traffic study". Eye opening.

Regarding schools, I doubt all these apartments will have a large impact (if any). Most apartment dwellers are singles, young couples with maybe 1 kid, or empty nesters. There was an article released not too long ago that debunked the school impact argument. It highlighted the apartment boom in KoP, and research showed impacts on Upper Merion School District were negligible. I will try and find it.

It depends on the borough and the district. When apartments are new, they attract primarily what you have stated. However, as they age, more families tend to move in. There is a lot of financial pressure on my local school district and some of that comes from apartments. More families have moved into the older apartments here and the financials of the local school district are at risk. Apartment dwellers do not pay the taxes to support their children going to that school. And as that school gets better, it is a much better deal to rent out an apartment that it is to buy and pay local property taxes.

Your comment on traffic concerns is also subject to the location. Abington Township is growing very fast and traffic studies are done all the time by the developer who is proposing the project, and the traffic study is so small and insignificant that there's no way it could represent reality. And the local municipalities want these projects because it gives them an infusion of cash, but it definitely impacts people who already live there, and traffic is a big part of that. KOP is a bit different than the growth of the older boroughs and townships.

[MarketStEl]

Originally Posted by bridge12

The growth in Conshohocken is impressive! Not to give it a negadelphian spin, but I can't help but think that Conshohocken's success is by in large a result of the wage tax.

I'd say it's more the product of the completion of I-476. Its junction with the Schuylkill Expressway is just across the river from the borough, and that now makes Conshy one of the most accessible locations in the region, just as the junction of the Schuylkill, the Turnpike and US 202 turned King of Prussia from country crossroads into edge city.

If it were just the wage tax motivating the companies, they could locate anywhere outside the city they wanted. They chose Conshy because of its accessibility (add a Regional Rail station to the freeway junction and you have accessibility gold). And not all the companies locating there are Philly refugees to boot.

[MarketStEl]

Originally Posted by cpomp

What has it been unfairly compared to?
I applaud the development on here, but I ALWAYS include the disclaimer that it is not Media or Ardmore. But comparing the KoP center to Conshohocken is fair (IMO), Conshohocken is a major employment hub but isn't remarkable in terms of setup and offerings. The only positive over KoP is more small/local eateries.



I am not trying to over boost the KoP Town Center, but it is a solid attempt at creating a walk-able live/play district in a car-centric suburb. The biggest letdown (IMO) is that it cannot expand outside of it's confines due to highways (as you said), and the planned Septa Norristown extension bypasses the site entirely (stupid). I also wish more apartments were placed on top of the stores along Main Street.

And the KoP Town Center is worlds better than the Garden State Park in Cherry Hill, which is a poorly planned strip with some afterthought apartments. The KoP center includes massive apartment buildings with over 2000+ residential units (more coming), a full outpost of ChoP, stacked townhomes, and dozens of stores / eateries. Yes, they are mostly chains, but that is the world we live in.

I spent time in KoP a few months back working with The Hartford Insurance Company on an unrelated project, and I made a point to walk around the entire complex more than once. It is not Media or Ardmore, but the harsh critiques confuse me. The developer could have thrown up a Wegmans and a few townhouses and walked away, but it's clear major planning went into this, and it has improved since the first phase of stores. There is also a planned office building and hotel on the remaining plots.

Google recently updated the streetview, and there are sidewalks.

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0836...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0862...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0835...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0856...7i16384!8i8192

I am still a city person, but I can understand the appeal. In the end, I guess people like what they like, and to some this is an awful monstrosity, and others its a perfect mix of urban/suburban.

<clap clap clap clap clap>

You know I'm a committed urbanist, and I agree with every word you say here about the KoP Town Center/Village at Valley Forge.

I first visited it before Hanover started building all those apartments, and at the time, it looked to me from Swedesford Road (which runs up its back side) like a typical shopping island in a sea of parking.

Then I visited the 55+ apartment building that had already opened there, noticed that its front entrance was right next to the shops, and realized I was looking at something different from that taking shape.

That's even more true now with the Hanover apartments, AVE and the Toll Brothers townhouses. Yes, the residential is not as mixed with the retail as it should be, but the whole development is internally walkable,

Frankly, I consider it the best-put-together piece of Instant Urbanism in the region, and only the developments near Tysons in Virginia outclass it. It's a shame that it sits in isolation from anything outside it, and it's also a shame that the Route 100 spur will stop about a half mile short of it, but internally, it works.

[thedirtypirate]

For all the downsides to the city, you couldn't pay me to live in a large soul-less apartment building ringed by parking lots off the side of the highway. MSE and cpomp make okay sales pitches for it and I guess there are people out there who find that type of living attractive, but I personally find it an abomination that is just sucking people, money, jobs, and retail away from the actual towns and cities of our region.

KOP rail is a gift presented to the rich landowners of Montgomery county. It's a middle finger to everyone else.

[Duderino]

I tend to take the "middle ground" point-of-view about the "Village" in KoP. There's no doubt it's a much-upgraded and upscale version of standard suburban strip retail. From the much better pedestrian-oriented layout, recreation plaza to spend time/socialize (I remember going to Paladar over the summer, and it honestly had a fantastic vibe), making decent connections with surrounding residential projects, and the very good restaurant/retail options generally, it unquestionably sets the bar higher.

However, there's no doubt that there could be something more ambitious to push the envelope a little more in a place like KoP.

Projects that incorporate things like underground parking, or mixed-use residential/retail buildings (as singular structures) would take development in KoP to the true level of an edge city (developments in places like Tysons, VA, Bethesda, MD or Somerville, MA come to mind).

I know the proposed KOP spur SEPTA line continues be controversial, but if implemented correctly with ambitious TOD, it could really be transformative for the area long term.

Hope springs eternal.

[PHL10]

Originally Posted by thedirtypirate

KOP rail is a gift presented to the rich landowners of Montgomery county. It's a middle finger to everyone else.

My gut has always told me the same but many here disagree but then again, they tend to be much more in tune with transit projects than I.

[thedirtypirate]

Originally Posted by Duderino

I tend to take the "middle ground" point-of-view about the "Village" in KoP. There's no doubt it's a much-upgraded and upscale version of standard suburban strip retail. From the much better pedestrian-oriented layout, recreation plaza to spend time/socialize (I remember going to Paladar over the summer, and it honestly had a fantastic vibe), making decent connections with surrounding residential projects, and the very good restaurant/retail options generally, it unquestionably sets the bar higher.

However, there's no doubt that there could be something more ambitious to push the envelope a little more in a place like KoP.

Projects that incorporate things like underground parking, or mixed-use residential/retail buildings (as singular structures) would take development in KoP to the true level of an edge city (developments in places like Tysons, VA, Bethesda, MD or Somerville, MA come to mind).

I know the proposed KOP spur SEPTA line continues be controversial, but if implemented correctly with ambitious TOD, it could really be transformative for the area long term.

Hope springs eternal.

I guess so. Just using Google Street View: https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9202...7i16384!8i8192


Tyson's Corner does look a lot like the renderings for the KOP rail. I just can't shake the belief that the big price tag on the train could be better used toward other uses.

[Duderino]

Fantastic news for the city. Hopefully they can direct a good portion of recruitment to surrounding parts of West Philly:

Spark Therapeutics plans $575M gene therapy manufacturing plant in University City


https://www.bizjournals.com/philadel...ia-drexel.html

[cpomp]

Awesome news! I wonder how tall the building will be and what it will look like. Great to see another parking lot go too.

[MarketStEl]

Originally Posted by Tweb66

Someone is going to have to describe to me the appeal of the KoP town center. I think it has been 2 years since I went there, maybe things have changed, IDK but it seemly overly contrived, because it is. It was all chain stores (albeit some high end ones) but was still very car oriented and lacked any charm. That and it is surrounded by soul sucking highways and office parks. Its perfectly pleasant but totally unremarkable. It is fine for what it is but it creeps into conversations in this board, comparing it to things it has no business being compared to.

Originally Posted by PHL10

I've never been so I just looked at it on Google Maps just now. Yeah, looks pretty bad to me....a strip of stores with sidewalks on literally "Main Street", surrounded by a sea parking, ringed by roads that can't be navigated on foot. It looks very similar to Garden State Park in Cherry Hill which I have been to.

For all I sing its praises, I actually understand, and at a fundamental level agree with, the criticisms of this project you make here.

One of the reasons I sing the Village at Valley Forge's praises is that it does inject walkable urbanity into a totally autocentric environment. But as you both point out, it remains an island in an autocentric sea, and there's no (or not much) way to add walkability to what surrounds it.

I've also been to the Garden State Park site redevelopment, and it's actually a little worse than VVF in terms of how the pieces relate to one another (for one, all the parking is in surface lots, even around the apartments; VVF has much of the residential parking in multistory garages that reduce the distance from the apartments to the stores). However, it wouldn't take all that much to reshape the roads around the GSP site to provide some sort of non-auto tie to what's around it.

Both projects suffer from an unwillingness to mix the residences and the commercial space directly by, say, building apartments or offices over the stores as one might find on an actual Main Street. But I don't think you can blame the projects for their location. You'd need to make far more sweeping changes to make either site part of a truly walkable environment. Given that, I'm willing to give both, but especially VVF, some slack for producing an internally walkable Instant Urbanist community (well, actually, the GSP development is not all that urban).