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I'll concede that it's not necessarily trying to be New York. I'm glad somebody else seems to get that they're creating neighborhoods or at the very least renaming or abbreviating them though. I don't see how anybody could argue with that. Newbold, by the way, doesn't actually exist. It's a part of Point Breeze that was renamed by people who moved into that neighborhood within the past decade or so. South of Garret wouldn't exist either because it would be a part of Drexel Hill, Drexel Park, or any of the other sections south of Garret Road. It is indeed different than places "above" Garret as south of Garret Rd tends to be more dense, urban, and working class and thus is what most people who grow up in the township consider the "real" Upper Darby. Still, it doesn't mean that it would exist as a neighborhood just because people decided to call it that. These names have historical records behind them. Elementary schools are named after them. That was the point I was making. SoHo was already a part of a section of New York. DUMBO was already a part of Brooklyn. I used the example I used to show how ridiculous the idea is.
I'll concede that it's not necessarily trying to be New York. I'm glad somebody else seems to get that they're creating neighborhoods or at the very least renaming or abbreviating them though. I don't see how anybody could argue with that. Newbold, by the way, doesn't actually exist. It's a part of Point Breeze that was renamed by people who moved into that neighborhood within the past decade or so. South of Garret wouldn't exist either because it would be a part of Drexel Hill, Drexel Park, or any of the other sections south of Garret Road. It is indeed different than places "above" Garret as south of Garret Rd tends to be more dense, urban, and working class and thus is what most people who grow up in the township consider the "real" Upper Darby. Still, it doesn't mean that it would exist as a neighborhood just because people decided to call it that. These names have historical records behind them. Elementary schools are named after them. That was the point I was making. SoHo was already a part of a section of New York. DUMBO was already a part of Brooklyn. I used the example I used to show how ridiculous the idea is.
And Queen Village never existed before the 70s. Real estate agents came up with the name to distinguish the neighborhood from the notorious Southwark Projects. Times change, people move around, and with them the names change as well. If nobody was moving into Newbold, attracting attention to that area, it would still be Point Breeze. It's just a product of changing times.
Like, as much as I do like to make fun of it, I'm not going to win an argument about Northern Liberties not being a "real" neighborhood today, even though I remember when it wasn't called that, and know it's a brand realtors made up for the area in the 80's (*Yes I know there was a Northern Liberties township once upon a time, but the neighborhood now known as that today is NOT within the old boundaries of that township).
umm . . . check your facts dude. There was never a time in the last 250 years when No Libs wasn't called some version of "Northern Liberties".
If nobody was moving into Newbold, attracting attention to that area, it would still be Point Breeze. It's just a product of changing times.
So . . . the name Point Breeze to refer to the neighborhood along Point Breeze didn't exist before the 1950s because Pt. Breeze Ave. didn't exist before the 1930s. Prior to that "Point Breeze" was where the Sunoco refinery is. There's no real historicity to the present concept of "Point Breeze" - no older than 30 years at most.
Extending the name "Point Breeze" all the way east to Broad St. happened because community activists from Pt. Breeze Ave. insisted upon it in the 80s and 90s.
Most people who live in what is now called Newbold have never referred to their neighborhood as Point Breeze and when pressed for a name would say "South Philly" as is the case anywhere up and down Broad St. from Washington to Oregon.
I'll concede that it's not necessarily trying to be New York. I'm glad somebody else seems to get that they're creating neighborhoods or at the very least renaming or abbreviating them though.
Huh? Developers create neighborhoods. You don't create something by naming it. Pennsylvania existed before William Penn got here. People lived here before 1680. It already had a name. Penn didn't "create" Pennsylvania by drawing lines on a map.
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Newbold, by the way, doesn't actually exist. It's a part of Point Breeze that was renamed by people who moved into that neighborhood within the past decade or so.
What doesn't exist is the alternate reality you're trying to inhabit. See my previous post . . . and if you're really interested in historical accuracy you should be calling it Passyunk Township. Granted, no one has used that name since the Act of Consolidation and no one in 2012 would have any idea what you were talking about but at least you'd be historically accurate. And then someone would get it and say, "ohhhh, you mean Newbold."
South of Garret wouldn't exist either because it would be a part of Drexel Hill, Drexel Park, or any of the other sections south of Garret Road.
OK, i'm starting to think the problem here is a question logic. study up on that. In the meantime try this analogy - If i'm driving a hybrid car that I like to call my "hybrid" and everyone else calls it a "Prius" (but i really hate that name and refuse to use it) the car still exists. It doesn't really matter what you call it. The car doesn't disappear if you use the wrong name. Now, if everyone who drives that car calls it a "hyrbid" and the only people who call it "Prius" are the people who don't own one then the friggin' car is called a "hyrbid".
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SoHo was already a part of a section of New York. DUMBO was already a part of Brooklyn. I used the example I used to show how ridiculous the idea is.
there's no point in debating the definition of "exist" with you any further. That's a lost cause. Either you're really into hyperbole or your concept of reality is hopelessly warped.
SoHo is part of a SECTION of Manhattan called Downtown. Downtown is not a neighborhood but rather represents the southern 1/3 of the island and is comprised of many neighborhoods. SoHo didn't have an identity 80 years ago. It's why people gave it a name in the first place.
umm . . . check your facts dude. There was never a time in the last 250 years when No Libs wasn't called some version of "Northern Liberties".
I actually do know the facts. But in the 80's when I went to high school @ 4th & Girard right by the Schlitz Brewery, people described the area around there as "Kensington". It was a very different neighborhood then, of course. "No Libs" in the modern sense was a term that really took off concurrently with the speculation/gentrification buzz in the area that started in the late 80's/early 90's. And as the population changed over, so did the name usage.
Names for neighborhoods are slippery things. They're consensus driven more than anything else, and tend to attach themselves to things like race, gentrification, crime, etc. That's the reason why realtors like to use new names as codespeak to (re)brand areas, which was the actual point I was making up there.
I actually do know the facts. But in the 80's when I went to high school @ 4th & Girard right by the Schlitz Brewery, people described the area around there as "Kensington".
The area north of Girard Ave. (around 4th St.) has, likewise, always been referred to as "Kensington" in one form of another.
But no one is suggesting that that the area north of Girard is still called Northern Liberties or Liberties Township or whatever. We're talking about the area south of Girard. My wife's family lived there (around 5th & Poplar) from 1780 until the 1960s. It was always called Northern Liberties.
In the 80s, when the place was largely abandoned it might be that you didn't hear that much about it - until developers started to show a lot of interest in the area - but in all reality there wasn't much interest interest in the area until the early 90s and that didn't translate into much development until 10+ years later. But no one "changed the name" or even brought it back. It never went away.
The area north of Girard Ave. (around 4th St.) has, likewise, always been referred to as "Kensington" in one form of another.
But no one is suggesting that that the area north of Girard is still called Northern Liberties or Liberties Township or whatever. We're talking about the area south of Girard. My wife's family lived there (around 5th & Poplar) from 1780 until the 1960s. It was always called Northern Liberties.
In the 80s, when the place was largely abandoned it might be that you didn't hear that much about it - until developers started to show a lot of interest in the area - but in all reality there wasn't much interest interest in the area until the early 90s and that didn't translate into much development until 10+ years later. But no one "changed the name" or even brought it back. It never went away.
That is probably the case. But my school was just south of Girard. And if you really want to get technical, there certainly are old maps of Kensington Township that DO show its border dipping south of Girard, following the Cohocksink Creek from Lawrence St, running roughly southeast to Brown & Delaware, and those areas, which include where the Piazza currently is, are definitely called NoLibs today. But I don't really care to argue much about this, and only went this far since you called me out. You sorta jumped on a side example I made in reference to a different point, and I think maybe you're lumping me in with someone else's position, in a different argument?
But anyway. I am currently living in the 21st century poster child for gentrification (Brooklyn), and it's been hilarious to watch neighborhood name boundaries change, stretch and bend practically every year as realtors try to convince newcomers that they're not actually moving to say, Bed Sty, Crown Heights or Flatbush. You can joke about it, but at some point, people get attached to "Clinton Hill", "Prospect Heights" etc, and those places become real neighborhoods. And the same thing's been going on for many decades. Nature of the beast.
Huh? Developers create neighborhoods. You don't create something by naming it. Pennsylvania existed before William Penn got here. People lived here before 1680. It already had a name. Penn didn't "create" Pennsylvania by drawing lines on a map.
What doesn't exist is the alternate reality you're trying to inhabit. See my previous post . . . and if you're really interested in historical accuracy you should be calling it Passyunk Township. Granted, no one has used that name since the Act of Consolidation and no one in 2012 would have any idea what you were talking about but at least you'd be historically accurate. And then someone would get it and say, "ohhhh, you mean Newbold."
OK, i'm starting to think the problem here is a question logic. study up on that. In the meantime try this analogy - If i'm driving a hybrid car that I like to call my "hybrid" and everyone else calls it a "Prius" (but i really hate that name and refuse to use it) the car still exists. It doesn't really matter what you call it. The car doesn't disappear if you use the wrong name. Now, if everyone who drives that car calls it a "hyrbid" and the only people who call it "Prius" are the people who don't own one then the friggin' car is called a "hyrbid".
there's no point in debating the definition of "exist" with you any further. That's a lost cause. Either you're really into hyperbole or your concept of reality is hopelessly warped.
SoHo is part of a SECTION of Manhattan called Downtown. Downtown is not a neighborhood but rather represents the southern 1/3 of the island and is comprised of many neighborhoods. SoHo didn't have an identity 80 years ago. It's why people gave it a name in the first place.
Developers don't create neighborhoods. They build them. They create subdivisions but that's about it.
Actually, most people from South Philly probably just say "South Philly" when referring to any part of it. Only distinct neighborhoods like Gray's Ferry really get mentioned otherwise. People tend to instead go by street intersections.
Again, a made up neighborhood by newcomers. If I said "Passyunk Township", they would say "no, South Philly". I call a neighborhood what the people who actually grow up there call it, not what developers name it. How many people even know that before 2003, there was a Catholic high school in Point Breeze/Newbold? The same one that is considered the South Philly Catholic high school.
Actually, the people who made the car decide what it's called, the same way the people who actually grow up in a place are the authorities on what that place is called. What logic? Your "argument" makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, you continue to contradict yourself and change what you're saying every time I refute your statements, so where exactly are you displaying this supposedly superior logic I should "study up on"?
So you just made my argument for me and contradicted yourself, and not for the first time either. SoHo was already a part of a section of Manhattan. It was given a name that never existed in any form prior to it being re-branded as SoHo by developers and realtors.
I would advise you to stop using the term hyperbole incorrectly. Also, you can continue to insult me like a child but all it does is say more about you that you can't attempt to make a point without insulting others than it ever could about the person you insult.
I've made my point. I will not engage your nonsense any further.
Developers don't create neighborhoods. They build them.
OK. whatever you say.
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Actually, most people from South Philly probably just say "South Philly" when referring to any part of it. Only distinct neighborhoods like Gray's Ferry really get mentioned otherwise. People tend to instead go by street intersections.
yeah, this is completely not true. I live in South Philly. People say Pennsport, Girard Estate, Point Breeze, Bella Vista and Whitman all day, every day.
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Again, a made up neighborhood by newcomers. If I said "Passyunk Township", they would say "no, South Philly". I call a neighborhood what the people who actually grow up there call it, not what developers name it.
Good. So you can stop using the name Point Breeze. and while you're at it, recognize that "South Philly" was a made up name from 100 years ago that developers used to convince people to move to the boonies of Moyamensing Township.
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How many people even know that before 2003, there was a Catholic high school in Point Breeze/Newbold? The same one that is considered the South Philly Catholic high school.
geez . . . The only catholic church in Point Breeze/Newbold is St. Thomas Aquinas at 17th & Morris. There's never been a Catholic High School in Point Breeze.
If you're trying to be clever in talking about St. John Neumann - that was in Grays Ferry. Always.
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Actually, the people who made the car decide what it's called, the same way the people who actually grow up in a place are the authorities on what that place is called.
No. The people who live there decide what it's called. Just like the people who first used the Jeep gave it a name that had nothing to do with what AMC wanted to call it. So, again, you should get used to names like Newbold, LoMo, SoHo and Dumbo . . . because that's what those places are called.
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So you just made my argument for me and contradicted yourself, and not for the first time either. SoHo was already a part of a section of Manhattan. It was given a name that never existed in any form prior to it being re-branded as SoHo by developers and realtors.
I'm glad that we've established that sections of a city can have neighborhoods. Parkside and Overbrook can exist even though they're in West Philly. Olney and Strawberry Mansion can exist even though they're in North Philly. OK, so first, SoHo wasn't rebranded by developers and realtors 10 years ago. The name came into use 60 years ago when the neighborhood was in full decline. Developers had nothing to do with it. Second, New York is a made up name that never existed before the english ousted the Dutch.
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I would advise you to stop using the term hyperbole incorrectly.
Hyperbole - A figure of speech in which exaggeration is used for emphasis or effect eg, "it's like an oven in here" or "that place doesn't exist" [a place that's actually on the map and actually, physically exists]
Nope. Pretty much nailed it.
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