Official Greater Philadelphia Area Crime Thread (temperatures, 2007, violent crime)

[Tweb66]

Originally Posted by cpomp

That is awful. A PHA home, apparently 26 people were living in there?

I read 18 people in one apartment. They also had 4 non working smoke detectors. Methinks someone at PHA is losing their job, and that might be the least of their worries. But seriously, are we really packing 18 people into one apartment? WTF? This is some 1980s Moscow ****.

[selhars]

Originally Posted by cpomp

That is awful. A PHA home, apparently 26 people were living in there?

As someone pointed out to me when I said exactly that^.....26 people were IN the home at the time. That doesn't mean they were living there. The person said it could have been a sleepover party, or people could have been visiting.

I don't think so. But technically he was correct at the time.
We don't know that they all lived there.

At one point there was speculation a kid accidentally started a X-mas tree fire.
No one else was awake when the child did this?
As the person pointed out to me....maybe not if the kid got up and no one else did....and the kid was afraid to say anything.

It will be interesting to find out if indeed they all lived there.
There's no way in the world that should have been the case.
Hope they don't blame PHA which says the detectors were working in May....and .....which can't watch people all the time, every day.

[henrychen]

Yeah, let's not start finger-pointing. For all we know, somebody could have taken the batteries out of the smoke detectors and used them for something else.
Sad to say, but living like they were living, the adults in the household didn't sound very responsible.

[cpomp]

Originally Posted by henrychen

Yeah, let's not start finger-pointing. For all we know, somebody could have taken the batteries out of the smoke detectors and used them for something else.
Sad to say, but living like they were living, the adults in the household didn't sound very responsible.

Getting off-topic, but I had my first college internship with PHA many years ago. The organization is a disorganized corrupt mess (besides the point). One of my menial yet eye-opening tasks was checking smoke detectors, electrical panels, gas meters, etc., at various "scattered sites". That is the term used for PHA homes intermingled with market rate housing, like the one in Fairmount.

For starters, you name it, I saw it. I lost track of the disturbing scenarios I encountered when entering most of these homes. The tenants were generally polite though since they knew I was just going through a checklist, and I was young.

But, this tragic situation does not surprise me. I entered many scattered sites meant for a family of 2-6, but had a dozen people living there. One time I counted 17 people in a two story home, most were children, young women, or older relatives. And often the smoke detectors had no batteries.

I'm trying not be presumptive, but my hunch is that whomever rented this house from PHA removed the batteries from the detectors or took them down, had relatives, friends, and many kids living there, and the kids were likely unsupervised, therefore disaster can strike at any moment. It is a horrific tragedy, and even though PHA sucks, they were *usually* proactive with smoke detector functionality, so I would place more responsibility on the tenants, but I'm sure the average public will blame PHA or failed city leadership for people living in extreme poverty.

As a disclaimer... I had my first Drexel co-op with PHA in 2011, I was a Facilities Manager Intern and visited hundreds of units over the course of 6 months and worked with their dated computer programs. So I am not talking out of my a@@.

But an extremely sad story regardless of blame.

[MarketStEl]

Originally Posted by cpomp

Getting off-topic, but I had my first college internship with PHA many years ago. The organization is a disorganized corrupt mess (besides the point). One of my menial yet eye-opening tasks was checking smoke detectors, electrical panels, gas meters, etc., at various "scattered sites". That is the term used for PHA homes intermingled with market rate housing, like the one in Fairmount.

For starters, you name it, I saw it. I lost track of the disturbing scenarios I encountered when entering most of these homes. The tenants were generally polite though since they knew I was just going through a checklist, and I was young.

But, this tragic situation does not surprise me. I entered many scattered sites meant for a family of 2-6, but had a dozen people living there. One time I counted 17 people in a two story home, most were children, young women, or older relatives. And often the smoke detectors had no batteries.

I'm trying not be presumptive, but my hunch is that whomever rented this house from PHA removed the batteries from the detectors or took them down, had relatives, friends, and many kids living there, and the kids were likely unsupervised, therefore disaster can strike at any moment. It is a horrific tragedy, and even though PHA sucks, they were *usually* proactive with smoke detector functionality, so I would place more responsibility on the tenants, but I'm sure the average public will blame PHA or failed city leadership for people living in extreme poverty.

As a disclaimer... I had my first Drexel co-op with PHA in 2011, I was a Facilities Manager Intern and visited hundreds of units over the course of 6 months and worked with their dated computer programs. So I am not talking out of my a@@.

But an extremely sad story regardless of blame.

Can't +1 you, so doing so this way.

[MPK21]

For some reason, still no official cause of this PHA fire in Fairmount but PHA remains the target, at least by lawyers ($$), activists ($$), and the media.

It's almost unacceptable to many that this fire was caused by a 5-y.o. kid playing with a lighter and not somehow PHA's direct fault and, even if this child is determined to be the cause, the fallout will still try to be steered to PHA for not having sprinkler systems, fire escapes, working smoke alarms etc.

[MPK21]

The property was up to current code and the (4) smoke detectors were in the subject unit, not the entire property. Not sure what ''urban poverty'' has to do with this given the Christmas morning tree fire that killed a father and 2 of his children in Quakertown; the cause traced to christmas tree lights in a residence with non-working smoke detectors. So far, no one else is to blame for this Quakertown tragedy. Is anyone being blamed for not having a fire escape?

Limiting the blame on PHA to ''should have seen how many people or coming and going into the property'' or the ''sheer number of kids constantly playing outside'' is misplaced. The tenants allowed additional people into their home, whether permanent or for a night. Were complaints made to PHA about overcrowding or unauthorized residents in this property?

This fire was preventable but when someone disables all the smoke detectors, with many kids present, and then has a live christmas tree in the mix with a lighter available to an unsupervised 5 y.o....it really was preventable but as of now, I don't see PHA liability thus far. Don't see how banning smoking just 4 years ago ties into this on PHA's part though as again, adults need to be responsible...why didn't PHA ban ''lighters and matches'' then given this reasoning?

Should PHA do watered Christmas tree checks? Tenants take on that responsibility...perhaps PHA should ban live christmas trees as an unwatered Christmas tree takes about 5-10 seconds to be fully engulfed, with smoke and fire running the ceiling...and with all smoke detectors disabled...forgetta 'bout it...a fire extinguisher wouldn't even do anything by then.

Of the initial causes outlined in your post, all are tenant responsibilities other than the vague ''lack of government oversight when it comes to safety''...yet, so far, responsibility for safety oversight here lies with the adult tenants.

Everyone should have a fire scenario in their homes; what to do, where to go etc and if you're gonna have a live Christmas tree, you must water it every day, otherwise, you're inviting tragedy, let alone disabling smoke detectors, which is more common than we think. It's an annual issue as there are many christmas tree fires every year in all kinds of places, involving all kinds of people from all walks of life and income levels.

[MPK21]

Originally Posted by robt47

it was 18 people in two 2-bedroom apartments

It was 14 people in a 4-bedroom apartment, Unit B. The fact that there were 4 additional people there the a.m. of this fire is on the adult tenants, not PHA.

There were 2 apartments in this residence: Unit A had 2 bedrooms, the apartment where the fire started had 4 bedrooms.

There were allegedly a total of 26 people in this property when the fire started.

Apartment A, the 2-bedroom unit, had 6 authorized tenants, but had 2 additional people there on the morning of the fire. All of these folks escaped the property.

Some basic info helps when someone is saying 18 people in 2, 2-bedroom apartments with a total of 4 smoke detectors in the property.

PHA has owned this property since 1969/1970 and will, between annual inspections and notice, repair or replace smoke/CO2 detectors within 24 hours.

[selhars]

If ultimately is was the responsibility of the adults tenants, then every thing else is noise. And I'll go a step further to say irrelevant. IMO.

[Redddog]

As far as I understood, the city of Philly does ban real trees in multi-unit properties.