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I wasn't saying people in the Northeast were sheltered. I was saying that aside from people in Chestnut Hill or the Middle to Far Northeast, I'm probably sheltered compared to people who grew up in the city, and I was only saying that because Larry Bowa was trying to run his mouth at me again. I consider Mayfair a lot like where I grew up actually. I can understand where you're coming from though, and I know the Northeast is a lot more varied than people give it credit for.
What's the matter? Did the "rich" kids pick on you or something?
Because fighting in the hood is going to prove something? I have a hard time believing philadelphiaspeaks is any different than it's always been. I guarantee you if I read a thread on there from today even that there would be the same people talking the same crapping and putting on the same fronts. I grew up with "back it up or shut up", and I don't need to prove anything to anybody.
My post was more because I was getting tired of this particular pissing match. You probably know that my association with that other board stretches back to its Phillyblog days - and that there is a core of regular posters on it who know one another (they're the ones who show up for the monthly PS Happy Hours; that's how my current landlord met me) and like and respect one another despite (because of?) differences in opinion. The trash-talkers and bigots are a constantly changing crowd, OTOH, varied in their identities but unified in their (rather narrow) worldview.
FKD19124: Ignore opening clause of PM I sent you. I replied based on an old browser window I still had open. Hgirl has sharp elbows, true, and she is a fierce defender of the city, but usually, she does not talk through her hat. Yes, she and I know each other too.
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Originally Posted by s1oozne
I wasn't saying people in the Northeast were sheltered. I was saying that aside from people in Chestnut Hill or the Middle to Far Northeast, I'm probably sheltered compared to people who grew up in the city, and I was only saying that because Larry Bowa was trying to run his mouth at me again. I consider Mayfair a lot like where I grew up actually. I can understand where you're coming from though, and I know the Northeast is a lot more varied than people give it credit for.
I learned that during my 18-month sojourn in Oxford Circle, and I told the editors of Hidden City that I intended to continue focusing on the Northeast in my commentaries and reporting for that site, for I do believe that another important part of the city's future is being written there right now - and that its fate should concern us all.
But as far as "sheltered" is concerned: The Northeast is middle class, not affluent (I'm sure you understand the distinction I'm making here), but I have spoken with a number of Northeast residents who have told me that they know people who have never ventured outside it. Since the Northeast had major employment centers (Frankford Arsenal, old IRS regional center, Byberry mental hospital, Nabisco plant - still), this would have indeed been possible for a good number of Northeast residents.
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Norristown isn't a suburb though. That's like comparing Pottstown to Bensalem. If you compare Montgomery County, Chester County, and Bucks County municipalities to those in Delaware County, you will find that outside of the city and urban parts of those counties (Newtown, Bristol borough, Pottstown, Norristown, Chonshohocken, Cheltenham, Coatesville, West Chester, Phoenixville, etc), Delaware County is much less sheltered and much more connected to the city. Bucks County borders the Northeast and that's it, and Montgomery County borders parts of North, Northwest, and West Philly but only a very tiny portion of that county is near the city. Delaware County on the other hand borders West and Southwest Philly, its municipalities are much smaller in area, and it is a much more compact county. The majority of Delaware County is closer to the city than the majority of Bucks or Montco are. Comparing Roxborough/Manyunk to Cobbs Creek, Elmwood, or especially Kingsessing is ridiculous, too. Montgomery County borders some legitimately bad parts, much moreso than Bucks County, but like I said it's a much smaller section of that county that is close to those parts of the city compared to Delco.
Delaware County broke off from Chester County in the 1830s because it had already become urbanized, at least along the Delaware, while the rest of the county remained rural (related trivia: Chester County built the court house at West Chester in 1701 because it took farmers too long to travel to the Chester court house at the county's far eastern end). Most of SEPTA's suburban bus and trolley routes emanating from 69th Street Terminal, also in the county, serve Delco communities, though some extend into Montgomery and Chester counties. As you were saying about the place....
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Also, Norristown isn't that much further from the city than Lafayette Hill.
Huh? Lafayette Hill shares a border with the city. You need to continue a few miles further along Ridge Pike, which passes south of Lafayette Hill, before you hit Norristown. Okay, maybe "isn't that much" is still valid, but I do believe that you don't have to pay an extra zone fare to travel to Lafayette Hill on SEPTA Bus Route 27, while Norristown is in the next fare zone.
My post was more because I was getting tired of this particular pissing match. You probably know that my association with that other board stretches back to its Phillyblog days - and that there is a core of regular posters on it who know one another (they're the ones who show up for the monthly PS Happy Hours; that's how my current landlord met me) and like and respect one another despite (because of?) differences in opinion. The trash-talkers and bigots are a constantly changing crowd, OTOH, varied in their identities but unified in their (rather narrow) worldview.
That's the problem - they're intolerant of differing opinions from outside their little bubble and they're quick to ban those who share those differing opinions.
What's the matter? Did the "rich" kids pick on you or something?
No but I've had my fill of loudmouths on the internet who have no shame in the fact that they can't back a bit of it up.
If you stop talking ish to me unprovoked, I see no reason we can't let bygones bygones. The little pissing matches back and forth really ruin threads.
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Originally Posted by MarketStEl
Huh? Lafayette Hill shares a border with the city. You need to continue a few miles further along Ridge Pike, which passes south of Lafayette Hill, before you hit Norristown. Okay, maybe "isn't that much" is still valid, but I do believe that you don't have to pay an extra zone fare to travel to Lafayette Hill on SEPTA Bus Route 27, while Norristown is in the next fare zone.
We're pretty much in agreement on everything here, including the Northeast. It's a large place that needs to remain somewhat stable.
When it comes to Norristown, my point is that it isn't that much further from the city than Lafayette Hill. It might not border the city, but an older, urban city doesn't have to border the city to be impacted by it. That's where the problems start first, is wherever is "accessible" to people from lower-class backgrounds. It's mostly good people that move into a place but those few bad apples and the problems they cause in such a dense, urban environment makes a whole neighborhood suffer.
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Originally Posted by Larry Bowa
That's the problem - they're intolerant of differing opinions from outside their little bubble and they're quick to ban those who share those differing opinions.
Yeah but that's the case with many websites these days.
That's the problem - they're intolerant of differing opinions from outside their little bubble and they're quick to ban those who share those differing opinions.
Sorry - if I think I read you right, you're wrong.
The moderators and admins on PS do tolerate differing opinions from people whose views are not grounded in bigotry, even if others perceive them as bigots. FKD19124 also posts on that forum, and some who have responded to his posts have accused him of racism. He has not been banned, and I can assure you his opinions are not shared by many regulars, including me, but we (or some of us) understand where he's coming from.
Bigots, they don't tolerate, nor should they, IMO.
I moderate the forums I watch (History and Philadelphia Transportation and SEPTA) with a light hand, but if I saw posts that I thought were simply ad hominem attacks, insults or bigoted statements that had no other value to the discussion taking place, I'd delete them too.
I don't think I would categorize Burholme as a rough or roughish area.
I grew up in Burholme, specifically. It wasn't exactly great when I was a kid, although trouble was mostly relegated to fist fights and minor property damage amongst the 8 to 18 year old crowd. However, now it's rough by any standard. Go look at a crime map. A kid was shot in the head and killed on the sidewalk in front of my best friend's home on my childhood block a couple of years ago. That doesn't happen in non-rough areas and that isn't the only major incident that I can name. The Philly crime boundary engulfed Burholme long ago, although the closer to Burholme Park you get the better it is (currently). Remember that Burholme encompasses a fairly significant area in terms of city blocks. Anything outside of this crime boundary is generally "not rough", although the criminals are always pushing the limits beyond the main high crime boundary and so you will see home invasions and robberies outside of the boundary (in Fox Chase and the close-by Suburbs, for instance). Anything within it tends to be rough. Most people who don't think Burholme is rough tend to be drive-through people from rougher neighborhoods or suburban apologists. Either way, they don't have the context and generally aren't looking close enough. The suburbanites wouldn't live here, wouldn't send their kids to northeast high, and the people from rougher neighborhoods tend to be provincially defensive in that they think no where is as tough as where they are from.
Yeah, Burholme is def not a rough area. Neither is Lawndale.
Not compared to North Philly. However, both of these neighborhoods are undesirable from a crime statistics point of view. The crime map tells no lies, and neither does direct experience growing up in Burholme and having cousins who grew up in Lawndale. The street assaults, street robberies, robbery attempts, and murder that has defined our experience in these areas begs to differ with your detached assessment. Where do you live that Lawndale isn't considered a rough area? have you been outside of Philadelphia? Have you ever chased a robber out of your house by brandishing a handgun? Have you ever been held up at gunpoint? Have you ever been punched in the face while walking down the street? Have you ever had any neighborhood friends murdered? I'd love to know from what authority and experience your assessment comes. I have a feeling that no one here is going to look to move to Lawndale or most of Burholme anytime soon. These areas are much different than they were even ten years ago.
I grew up in Burholme, specifically. It wasn't exactly great when I was a kid, although trouble was mostly relegated to fist fights and minor property damage amongst the 8 to 18 year old crowd. However, now it's rough by any standard. Go look at a crime map. A kid was shot in the head and killed on the sidewalk in front of my best friend's home on my childhood block a couple of years ago. That doesn't happen in non-rough areas and that isn't the only major incident that I can name. The Philly crime boundary engulfed Burholme long ago, although the closer to Burholme Park you get the better it is (currently). Remember that Burholme encompasses a fairly significant area in terms of city blocks. Anything outside of this crime boundary is generally "not rough", although the criminals are always pushing the limits beyond the main high crime boundary and so you will see home invasions and robberies outside of the boundary (in Fox Chase and the close-by Suburbs, for instance). Anything within it tends to be rough. Most people who don't think Burholme is rough tend to be drive-through people from rougher neighborhoods or suburban apologists. Either way, they don't have the context and generally aren't looking close enough. The suburbanites wouldn't live here, wouldn't send their kids to northeast high, and the people from rougher neighborhoods tend to be provincially defensive in that they think no where is as tough as where they are from.
I live in Fox Chase so I wouldnt consider myself to be a person from a rougher neighborhood or a suburban apologist. I spend a decent amount of time in Burholme and was making the point that, going back to the original question being asked, I wouldn't say that the proximity of those areas to Burholme would specifically be a reason for a suburbanite to be scared of those areas mentioned. I agree with you that there is definitely crime in Burholme and but in my opinion by Philadelphia standards (and sadly even by Northeast Phila standards) I don't see it as that bad.
I don't believe Burholme is bad at all. My wife grew up there and the in-laws still live there so I'm always in the neighborhood. In fact I drive through there every day back and forth to work. Now I will admit, it has gotten worse in the last 10-20 years.
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