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Old 08-05-2018, 03:21 PM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
14,183 posts, read 9,075,142 times
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Keep in mind that 3-digit Interstates with an even first digit are loop routes either through or around a city. And in some cities I know with such beltways, their directions change as the overall orientation of the highway changes: Check out I-435 (the only beltway in the country with that number) around Kansas City, Mo.-Kan.

295 will now form a beltway around Trenton as well as an eastern bypass of Philadelphia and free local alternative to the New Jersey Turnpike below Exit 7A. It makes sense for its direction to change, but IMO not the way Pennsylvania and New Jersey are changing it: it should be N-S in Pennsylvania, E-W from the Scudders Falls Bridge to US 1 in NJ, then N-S again.

It also IMO made more sense to add this highway to the 295 beltway rather than the 195 Trenton-to-the-Shore spur. (Odd-first-digit 3-digit Interstates are spurs into a city.)
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Old 08-05-2018, 08:26 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia
273 posts, read 318,221 times
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In the process of routing Interstates through and around cities back in the ’50s, there was definite preference for routing the major one- and two-digit routes directly through major cities—and frequently through city centers at that. Whether wise or not, this approach was so prevalent in large American cities that it would be much easier to list the cities where this numbering format hasn’t been followed.

In instances where the major through route instead follows a bypass around a city, it was generally because the route faced intense public opposition...or because of budgetary problems...or a combination of the two. Such situations happened with I-95’s routing in Boston and Washington. But that’s not the case with I-95 in Philadelphia, because the road was built. It’s worth noting that Pennsylvania actually accomplished the difficult task of overcoming public opposition and mustering the support and resources needed to build what ended up being the costliest Interstate construction project in the state’s history—whereas New Jersey buckled to resistance from wealthy, politically connected residents of Mercer and Somerset Counties...and also from the NJ Turnpike Authority, which feared the effect a completed free I-95 would have on its toll revenues.

There’s another important difference separating the Boston and Washington examples from the situation in Philadelphia. Yes, I-95 forms a circumferential route around Boston and doesn’t enter the city limits, but it’s also directly connected to connected to multiple high-capacity radial freeways (I-93, I-90, US 1) that provide ample nonstop access to downtown Boston. Likewise, the Capital Beltway in Washington is connected to multiple radials providing all-freeway access to the center of the District.

The New Jersey Turnpike, on the other hand, though it dutifully feeds traffic into New York at its northern end through direct connections to the Verrazano Bridge, the Holland Tunnel, the Lincoln Tunnel, and ultimately the George Washington Bridge, treats Philadelphia at its southern end like the elephant in the room it wishes to ignore. The road plows a nearly arrow-straight route toward the Delaware Bay and offers exactly zero direct nonstop to connections to Philadelphia. If you care to slog through stoplights in Maple Shade or Mount Ephraim, you can find your way to the city eventually, but you’re on your own. The NJTA barely even acknowledges that the city exists—“Philadelphia” being all but absent from Turnpike signage.

So even if we accept that an Interstate doesn’t have to pass through the city proper, I’d argue that it should still provide adequate access to other freeways connecting to the city center and be an integrated part of the overall metropolitan freeway network. The New Jersey Turnpike accomplishes neither with regard to Philadelphia.

Last edited by briantroutman; 08-05-2018 at 09:43 PM..
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Old 08-06-2018, 08:00 AM
 
Location: The City
22,378 posts, read 38,935,335 times
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this is all just odd


IMHO they should have actually renamed 95 to "276" from the new interchange around Trenton and then all of 195 as 276




Belmar to KOP on 276 (PA TRPK becomes 276 (points east) from 76 at KOP) would have made more sense and helped make more sense for drivers (mostly an E/W configuration)


295 could have run fro the DMB to the new 276 interchange and into Trenton on that little spur
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Old 08-06-2018, 10:23 AM
 
1,398 posts, read 915,560 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briantroutman View Post
There’s another important difference separating the Boston and Washington examples from the situation in Philadelphia. Yes, I-95 forms a circumferential route around Boston and doesn’t enter the city limits, but it’s also directly connected to connected to multiple high-capacity radial freeways (I-93, I-90, US 1) that provide ample nonstop access to downtown Boston. Likewise, the Capital Beltway in Washington is connected to multiple radials providing all-freeway access to the center of the District.

The New Jersey Turnpike, on the other hand, though it dutifully feeds traffic into New York at its northern end through direct connections to the Verrazano Bridge, the Holland Tunnel, the Lincoln Tunnel, and ultimately the George Washington Bridge, treats Philadelphia at its southern end like the elephant in the room it wishes to ignore. The road plows a nearly arrow-straight route toward the Delaware Bay and offers exactly zero direct nonstop to connections to Philadelphia. If you care to slog through stoplights in Maple Shade or Mount Ephraim, you can find your way to the city eventually, but you’re on your own. The NJTA barely even acknowledges that the city exists—“Philadelphia” being all but absent from Turnpike signage.

So even if we accept that an Interstate doesn’t have to pass through the city proper, I’d argue that it should still provide adequate access to other freeways connecting to the city center and be an integrated part of the overall metropolitan freeway network. The New Jersey Turnpike accomplishes neither with regard to Philadelphia.
This argument really doesn't make any sense at all because changing the NJTP number to 95 for the full length doesn't actually change the freeway access to Philadelphia in any way at all. It's not like changing the numbering of the turnpike is going to magically make the highway that is currently 95 just disappear. If 95 were routed to the Del Mem Bridge and NJTP, traveling from the south, you'd have the current 95 as direct highway access to Philadelphia. From the north, there is currently no direct highway connection to Philadelphia from 95 and won't be until the new TP interchange opens. You have to either jut a mile or two west on local roads from the NJTP to 295 S at exit 4 or 5 and take 295 S to 76/676 to get to Philly or take the PA TP connector to Bristol and take 13S to 95S. So it doesn't really matter what highway is called 95 or not, your actual driving options are no different. I do agree that the system would make a lot more sense if there were a direct interchange between the NJTP and 76/42 freeway, and I never understood why there is not, but that is only a tangential discussion to the topic of the most appropriate routing of I-95.

I've heard this argument from more people than just you, but it seems to me like people petulantly stamping their feet shouting "no, 95 must go through Philly, Philly is important, dammit". It never made any sense to me in any logistical way.
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Old 08-06-2018, 10:26 AM
 
1,398 posts, read 915,560 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly View Post
this is all just odd


IMHO they should have actually renamed 95 to "276" from the new interchange around Trenton and then all of 195 as 276




Belmar to KOP on 276 (PA TRPK becomes 276 (points east) from 76 at KOP) would have made more sense and helped make more sense for drivers (mostly an E/W configuration)


295 could have run fro the DMB to the new 276 interchange and into Trenton on that little spur
That's probably an improvement, although it would be a little confusing at the point where you have to get off what is now 295 S and onto 195 E where you would have to exit 276 to stay on 276 in the new naming.
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Old 08-06-2018, 01:43 PM
 
Location: close to home
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All I know is I wanted to get onto 295s from 195w and because there was NO signage, I went right instead of left/straight and ended up getting back on 195 going east and had to do it all over again. Sucked. Lesson learned though .
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Old 08-06-2018, 02:58 PM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
14,183 posts, read 9,075,142 times
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I get that, NewtownBucks, but as briantroutman explained, the reason 95 does not go through either the District of Columbia or Boston is because the anti-freeway forces in both cities had enough strength and clout to get those planned segments canceled - just like the well-off homeowners in Somerset and Morris counties in New Jersey were able to bring pressure to bear on the NJ Highway Department (at the time) to scrap that state's segment of I-95.

There were a bunch of people here who fought to at least have the freeway buried as it ran past the Central Delaware riverfront (and cut the same off from Society Hill). The Pennsylvania Department of Highways had planned simply to run the elevated viaduct along the Delaware waterfront. Society Hill residents actually got Vice President Hubert Humphrey to enter the fray on their side; the result is the half-buried freeway we have today. I for one certainly prefer this to the likely alternative.

And the fact of the matter is, it would indeed have been a slight if the principal Interstate along the East Coast ran through all the other cities it served except Philadelphia.

However, briantroutman, the reason the NJ Turnpike has no freeway connections to Philadelphia is because none existed at the time the highway was built in 1949-51. The NJ 495 connector to the Lincoln Tunnel was built concurrently with the Turnpike, as was the Hudson County Turnpike spur that went almost all the way to the Holland Tunnel; I believe that the freeway leading to the George Washington Bridge dates to this time as well. South Jersey wouldn't get its first freeway until the North-South Freeway (NJ 42) opened in 1958, seven years after the Turnpike opened. Could it have been routed so that it connected directly to the NJTP at Exit 3? Perhaps. But that's something to take up with NJDOT, not the Turnpike Authority.

And even today, most of the trunk highways serving South Jersey aren't freeways. The only other one of any note aside from 295 itself is the short NJ 90 freeway leading to the Betsy Ross Bridge from NJ 73.
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Old 08-06-2018, 03:28 PM
 
9,576 posts, read 7,336,890 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
However, briantroutman, the reason the NJ Turnpike has no freeway connections to Philadelphia is because none existed at the time the highway was built in 1949-51. The NJ 495 connector to the Lincoln Tunnel was built concurrently with the Turnpike, as was the Hudson County Turnpike spur that went almost all the way to the Holland Tunnel; I believe that the freeway leading to the George Washington Bridge dates to this time as well. South Jersey wouldn't get its first freeway until the North-South Freeway (NJ 42) opened in 1958, seven years after the Turnpike opened. Could it have been routed so that it connected directly to the NJTP at Exit 3? Perhaps. But that's something to take up with NJDOT, not the Turnpike Authority.
Yeah, if they wanted to connect the NJ Turnpike to say the Ben Franklin and/or the Walt Whitman with an interstate/limited access freeway back in the day, they would have had to plow through Cherry Hill or Haddonfield.
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Old 04-08-2023, 06:55 PM
 
Location: Levittown
968 posts, read 1,142,233 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naesc View Post
I like this idea, but then how would 95 be continuous?
It wouldn’t be. And neither would 276 for that matter, since 195 continues for another 6 miles west of the New Jersey Turnpike until it downgrades to NJ Rt 29 in Trenton.

The only logical alternative in this case would be to multiplex 95 and 276 at the eastern terminus of the Pennsylvania Turnpike and have the concurrent 95/276 extend over the Pearl Harbor Memorial Bridge into NJ, join the NJ Turnpike northbound at interchange 6 where 95 currently does, but then have 276 break off at 7A and continue eastbound towards the shore. Then what would you rename 195 west of the Turnpike? That could either stay as a shortened 6 mile 195 between Robbinsville and Trenton or a freeway extension of Rt 29. FTR it always did seem rather pointless where 29 ends and 195 begins. Or they could extend 195 further into Trenton somehow. It would be nice to go that way from Rt 1 without having to deal with Warren St and all the panhandlers hanging around on that corner with 29, without a light at all.

Then again as another person said, 276 is a 3 digit auxiliary route beginning with an even number, thus mandating both terminuses to be either the parent interstate highway or another interstate highway. You wouldn’t have that here. Which explains why the current highway is 195, since an auxiliary route that begins with an odd number merely intersects the parent route at one point or starts there and ends at a lower grade road. 195 starts and ends at NJ state roads and hits the Turnpike/95 at MM 6.

Last edited by NYtoNJtoPA; 04-08-2023 at 07:05 PM..
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Old 04-09-2023, 10:06 PM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
14,183 posts, read 9,075,142 times
Reputation: 10526
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYtoNJtoPA View Post
It wouldn’t be. And neither would 276 for that matter, since 195 continues for another 6 miles west of the New Jersey Turnpike until it downgrades to NJ Rt 29 in Trenton.

The only logical alternative in this case would be to multiplex 95 and 276 at the eastern terminus of the Pennsylvania Turnpike and have the concurrent 95/276 extend over the Pearl Harbor Memorial Bridge into NJ, join the NJ Turnpike northbound at interchange 6 where 95 currently does, but then have 276 break off at 7A and continue eastbound towards the shore. Then what would you rename 195 west of the Turnpike? That could either stay as a shortened 6 mile 195 between Robbinsville and Trenton or a freeway extension of Rt 29. FTR it always did seem rather pointless where 29 ends and 195 begins. Or they could extend 195 further into Trenton somehow. It would be nice to go that way from Rt 1 without having to deal with Warren St and all the panhandlers hanging around on that corner with 29, without a light at all.

Then again as another person said, 276 is a 3 digit auxiliary route beginning with an even number, thus mandating both terminuses to be either the parent interstate highway or another interstate highway. You wouldn’t have that here. Which explains why the current highway is 195, since an auxiliary route that begins with an odd number merely intersects the parent route at one point or starts there and ends at a lower grade road. 195 starts and ends at NJ state roads and hits the Turnpike/95 at MM 6.
It may continue into Trenton as NJ 29 (an expressway rather than a freeway, IIRC), but it ends at an interchange with I-295. So it does serve as an Interstate spur in the usual sense of the term, even though it's a spur of a 3-digit Interstate that crosses the parent of both 3-digit Interstates.

I will say this much: the directional signage on the extended 295 makes no sense. At the New Hope-Yardley interchange, I-295 East becomes I-295 South as it heads north to US 1 below Princeton (the original alignment of I-95 in NJ was to parallel US 1 to its west; it should be at at that point (the US 1 interchange) that 295 North becomes 295 South.

Last edited by MarketStEl; 04-09-2023 at 10:27 PM..
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