Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
It may continue into Trenton as NJ 29 (an expressway rather than a freeway, IIRC), but it ends at an interchange with I-295. So it does serve as an Interstate spur in the usual sense of the term, even though it's a spur of a 3-digit Interstate that crosses the parent of both 3-digit Interstates.
Good point. Yes I guess its western terminus is the east end of 29 along with exit 60 of 295.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl
I will say this much: the directional signage on the extended 295 makes no sense. At the New Hope-Yardley interchange, I-295 East becomes I-295 South as it heads north to US 1 below Princeton (the original alignment of I-95 in NJ was to parallel US 1 to its west; it should be at at that point (the US 1 interchange) that 295 North becomes 295 South.
I agree one would be confused looking at a map but I think if it kept changing signage along with actual direction it would be even more confusing. Part of the reason 695 in Baltimore for example has the inner and outer loop signs.
It may continue into Trenton as NJ 29 (an expressway rather than a freeway, IIRC), but it ends at an interchange with I-295. So it does serve as an Interstate spur in the usual sense of the term, even though it's a spur of a 3-digit Interstate that crosses the parent of both 3-digit Interstates.
I will say this much: the directional signage on the extended 295 makes no sense. At the New Hope-Yardley interchange, I-295 East becomes I-295 South as it heads north to US 1 below Princeton (the original alignment of I-95 in NJ was to parallel US 1 to its west; it should be at at that point (the US 1 interchange) that 295 North becomes 295 South.
I-295 is closer to E-W in Mercer County between Scudder's Falls and US-1, so it would be best to be I-295 N between the PA TP interchange and Scudder's Falls, then I-295 E between Scudder's Falls and US-1 and then I-295 S from West Windsor down to the Del Mem Bridge (as it always has been). As it stands, it's I-295 E when it's heading N into NJ and then switches to I-295 S when it actually starts heading E.
I-295 is closer to E-W in Mercer County between Scudder's Falls and US-1, so it would be best to be I-295 N between the PA TP interchange and Scudder's Falls, then I-295 E between Scudder's Falls and US-1 and then I-295 S from West Windsor down to the Del Mem Bridge (as it always has been). As it stands, it's I-295 E when it's heading N into NJ and then switches to I-295 S when it actually starts heading E.
That works just as well. As now signed, 295 forms a 3/4 beltway around Trenton, so this makes sense.
Either way, calling it southbound once it crosses the Scudders Falls Bridge into NJ makes no sense at all.
I still think 295 would be more confusing if they made the signs any different in NJ. Look at 287. It’s a big horseshoe yet it’s all signed north/south.
The New Jersey Turnpike, on the other hand, though it dutifully feeds traffic into New York at its northern end through direct connections to the Verrazano Bridge, the Holland Tunnel, the Lincoln Tunnel, and ultimately the George Washington Bridge, treats Philadelphia at its southern end like the elephant in the room it wishes to ignore. The road plows a nearly arrow-straight route toward the Delaware Bay and offers exactly zero direct nonstop to connections to Philadelphia. If you care to slog through stoplights in Maple Shade or Mount Ephraim, you can find your way to the city eventually, but you’re on your own. The NJTA barely even acknowledges that the city exists—“Philadelphia” being all but absent from Turnpike signage.
So even if we accept that an Interstate doesn’t have to pass through the city proper, I’d argue that it should still provide adequate access to other freeways connecting to the city center and be an integrated part of the overall metropolitan freeway network. The New Jersey Turnpike accomplishes neither with regard to Philadelphia.
South Jersey - meaning the Philly suburbs - has always been the red headed stepchild of both New Jersey and Philadelphia, NJ because NYC has always had a much stronger pull on the state of NJ as a whole than Philly ever did or ever will, and Philly, well put it this way, there's a constant fight or rat race of NYers to escape the state of New York for North Jersey whereas nobody wants to leave PA for South Jersey unless it's Philly itself maybe. So infrastructure suffers more neglect, development is more sparse due to (relatively) less supply and demand. When I lived in Barrington, my pet peeve was the whole 295/76/42 mess that they are still working on. Northbound 55 past Deptford Mall where it merges into 42 is another treat. Real fun going back and forth to Rowan University from time to time.
This argument really doesn't make any sense at all because changing the NJTP number to 95 for the full length doesn't actually change the freeway access to Philadelphia in any way at all. It's not like changing the numbering of the turnpike is going to magically make the highway that is currently 95 just disappear. If 95 were routed to the Del Mem Bridge and NJTP, traveling from the south, you'd have the current 95 as direct highway access to Philadelphia. From the north, there is currently no direct highway connection to Philadelphia from 95 and won't be until the new TP interchange opens. You have to either jut a mile or two west on local roads from the NJTP to 295 S at exit 4 or 5 and take 295 S to 76/676 to get to Philly or take the PA TP connector to Bristol and take 13S to 95S. So it doesn't really matter what highway is called 95 or not, your actual driving options are no different. I do agree that the system would make a lot more sense if there were a direct interchange between the NJTP and 76/42 freeway, and I never understood why there is not, but that is only a tangential discussion to the topic of the most appropriate routing of I-95.
I've heard this argument from more people than just you, but it seems to me like people petulantly stamping their feet shouting "no, 95 must go through Philly, Philly is important, dammit". It never made any sense to me in any logistical way.
I had this conversation with a business client of mine relatively recently. Not being originally from here, he said 95 in Philly was not even completed without its gaps until 1986. My boss grew up in Chester in the 70s and had relatives in my area at the time. His family used to go over the bridge into NJ, then come up 295 then back over the Burlington Bristol to get to his aunt and uncle's house in Fairless Hills, since 95 in the city was not yet open but 295 in South Jersey was completed, that portion at least.
South Jersey - meaning the Philly suburbs - has always been the red headed stepchild of both New Jersey and Philadelphia, NJ because NYC has always had a much stronger pull on the state of NJ as a whole than Philly ever did or ever will, and Philly, well put it this way, there's a constant fight or rat race of NYers to escape the state of New York for North Jersey whereas nobody wants to leave PA for South Jersey unless it's Philly itself maybe. So infrastructure suffers more neglect, development is more sparse due to (relatively) less supply and demand. When I lived in Barrington, my pet peeve was the whole 295/76/42 mess that they are still working on. Northbound 55 past Deptford Mall where it merges into 42 is another treat. Real fun going back and forth to Rowan University from time to time.
Well, since Philly's Pennsylvania suburbs developed earlier and were (and with a very few exceptions remain) tonier than those on the New Jersey side of the Delaware, this sort of makes sense.
The first South Jersey suburbs to develop followed the railroads that ran from Camden. With the exception of Merchantville to the east (and the area around the Garden State Park racetrack), the main vector of development was along the line that connected Philadelphia (via the Delair Bridge) to the seashore. The PATCO Speedline parallels that railroad once past Haddon Township, and inward of it, it follows one of the main arteries leading out of Camden, Haddon Avenue. It's along this line and the nearby White Horse Pike (US 30) that you find the oldest South Jersey suburbs that originated as suburbs (as opposed to towns like Moorestown whose histories stretch back to Colonial days).
It was the opening of the Ben Franklin Bridge in 1926 that opened the spigot for mostly South Philly residents to move over to New Jersey. The opening of the Walt Whitman Bridge, closer to South Philly, in 1957 turned the trickle into a stream. (Edited to add: I am slighting here the role both the railroad connecting Camden with Trenton and the Tacony-Palmyra Bridge (opened 1929) played in developing western Burlington and northern Camden County.)
You will find something sort of similar on Long Island, where the North Shore is much tonier than the South Shore. But Long Island was somewhat constrained for buildable land, so there was equal if not greater expansion on the other side of the Hudson. Besides, North Jersey did have its own urban centers — Newark, Jersey City, Paterson, Elizabeth — while South Jersey had only Camden. Those formed larger nuclei around which suburbs could form.
Well, since Philly's Pennsylvania suburbs developed earlier and were (and with a very few exceptions remain) tonier than those on the New Jersey side of the Delaware, this sort of makes sense.
The first South Jersey suburbs to develop followed the railroads that ran from Camden. With the exception of Merchantville to the east (and the area around the Garden State Park racetrack), the main vector of development was along the line that connected Philadelphia (via the Delair Bridge) to the seashore. The PATCO Speedline parallels that railroad once past Haddon Township, and inward of it, it follows one of the main arteries leading out of Camden, Haddon Avenue. It's along this line and the nearby White Horse Pike (US 30) that you find the oldest South Jersey suburbs that originated as suburbs (as opposed to towns like Moorestown whose histories stretch back to Colonial days).
It was the opening of the Ben Franklin Bridge in 1926 that opened the spigot for mostly South Philly residents to move over to New Jersey. The opening of the Walt Whitman Bridge, closer to South Philly, in 1957 turned the trickle into a stream. (Edited to add: I am slighting here the role both the railroad connecting Camden with Trenton and the Tacony-Palmyra Bridge (opened 1929) played in developing western Burlington and northern Camden County.)
You will find something sort of similar on Long Island, where the North Shore is much tonier than the South Shore. But Long Island was somewhat constrained for buildable land, so there was equal if not greater expansion on the other side of the Hudson. Besides, North Jersey did have its own urban centers — Newark, Jersey City, Paterson, Elizabeth — while South Jersey had only Camden. Those formed larger nuclei around which suburbs could form.
I never thought there was anything magical about the four biggest cities in North Jersey apart from being close to NYC and developed as such due to that. Camden began life as a Philly suburb then transformed into an edge city and probably started going downhill once all the stripmalls and decentralization in Cherry Hill and neighboring towns started to kill it off.
I would also agree about the north and south shore contrasts and I see a similar thing here as Central and Upper Bucks tend to be more "toney" than Lower Bucks and the case looks similar in what I see of Montgomery County too.
I never thought there was anything magical about the four biggest cities in North Jersey apart from being close to NYC and developed as such due to that. Camden began life as a Philly suburb then transformed into an edge city and probably started going downhill once all the stripmalls and decentralization in Cherry Hill and neighboring towns started to kill it off.
I would also agree about the north and south shore contrasts and I see a similar thing here as Central and Upper Bucks tend to be more "toney" than Lower Bucks and the case looks similar in what I see of Montgomery County too.
Montgomery is different than Bucks, in that the toniest parts are largely in the lower part of the county (Main Line).
Most of Montgomery County is very nice though, whether Lower or Upper.
I'd say Delaware County more closely resembles Bucks in terms of socio-economic differences from Lower to Upper.
I never thought there was anything magical about the four biggest cities in North Jersey apart from being close to NYC and developed as such due to that. Camden began life as a Philly suburb then transformed into an edge city and probably started going downhill once all the stripmalls and decentralization in Cherry Hill and neighboring towns started to kill it off.
I would also agree about the north and south shore contrasts and I see a similar thing here as Central and Upper Bucks tend to be more "toney" than Lower Bucks and the case looks similar in what I see of Montgomery County too.
That's not quite right for any of those four save maybe Jersey City.
Newark is actually older than Philadelphia, as it was first settled in 1666, two years after the British took New Amsterdam over from the Dutch. Both it and Paterson were industrial centers in their own right, and the Prudential insurance and financial services company has been Newark's staunchest corporate citizen, having called Newark home since its founding in 1875. In that respect, it's more like Brooklyn in that both had their own business and industrial centers separate from those of New York but got overrun by New York's growth (or absorbed into the city in Brooklyn's case). Many of the towns surrounding Newark — Irvington, the Oranges, Maplewood — were suburbs of that city before the whole area got pulled into Newark's orbit. Elizabeth was a port city that had substantial trade on its own before the Port of New York Authority (now Port Authority of New York and New Jersey) was established in 1921.
Calling Camden a "Philadelphia suburb" might be more defensible, sort of like calling Kansas City, Kan., a suburb of Kansas City, Mo., but in both cases, the cities in question had also built up homegrown industrial bases and thus did not depend entirely on the larger city next door for their existence.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
