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I know Septa is eyeing a BSL extension, which would be an above ground rail link to the Navy Yard which is much needed. Beyond that I would like to see the renovation and re-opening of the 30th St concourse and the re-opening of an MFL stop at 22nd Street. But I find all of those (minus BSL extension) to be of less priority than investing in connecting the overall region.
kyb01 already got 22d Street, but I believe the BSLX to the Navy Yard will be underground, not above it, if and when built.
The entire South Broad subway tunnel lies beneath the water table as it is now, so that won't be an obstacle to extending it further.
Oh, and: I think I removed this from your post, but: the NHSL spur to KofP won't bypass the Village at Valley Forge - it will stop short of it. The approved alignment will proceed from the mall to the business park and run along First Avenue, ending at the Valley Forge Casino Resort.
A left turn and another half mile of viaduct and it would hit the Village. I asked about this the last time I was at a KOP BID forum; ISTR the person who filled me in said something about adding traffic to the freeway interchange right next to the Village as the reason against.
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Originally Posted by BK_PHL_DEL
IMO the $1.2 billion would have been better spent on replacing funds from a reduction in the wage tax. In the bigger, longer-term picture, a lower wage tax or elimination of it would go a long way towards reclaiming those jobs in the suburbs back to Philly. KOP is a major employment center *now*, but malls come and go. The $1.2 billion could have spurred a lot of job creation for the city for generations to come.
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As cpomp said, it's not just the mall.
KofP is the second-largest employment center in the region after Center City Philadelphia itself. It's also the second-largest edge city on the East Coast, surpassed only by Tysons (Corner), Va. And the two edge cities are closer to each other than it may seem in terms of employment, retail space and commercial space (Tysons has more office space, KofP more industrial space).
Something you all may have missed, however, is that Center City added jobs at a pretty smart clip last year, indicating it may be pulling out of its low-grade funk.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BK_PHL_DEL
The wage tax is a huge reason for Philly's unattractiveness to employers and to the harsh business environment. That's why I think that $1.2 billion could be better used to gradually lower the tax rate while keeping it revenue neutral. Lowering and eliminating the wage tax is the key to expanding our tax base. It's already stupid to tax something that can leave city limits and provide revenue instead to the suburbs. More tax burden has to be shifted to what STAYS in the city, aka property and land. There's significant uproar from the attempted property tax hike and assessment fiasco, but not enough attention on the wage tax. Ideally I would welcome increases in property tax rate IF the wage tax is reduced in tandem.
Keep in mind that a good chunk of that $1.2b won't come from local or state sources.
It will come from the Federal Transit Administration.*
You can't use that money for local tax reduction even if you wanted to.
*That's assuming that the Trump Administration doesn't whack the FTA budget. And that the 50% grant/local match program continues.
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Originally Posted by Pennsport
Yeah, I completely agree that the best case scenario is to pull companies and jobs from other areas of the country/globe.
I don't.
The real best-case scenario is to grow the jobs here rather than lure them from elsewhere.
Or, as the hashtag in the runup to the HQ2 reveal had it, #GrowTenAmazons.
That will still require some changes in policy and attitude, but it will produce more durable growth and employment and it won't require bribes, as luring companies from elsewhere usually does.
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Originally Posted by cpomp
I do agree with your logic. Moving operations to Philadelphia wouldn't result in catastrophe, but I still think if the city is going to make an effort like that, then why not create a committee to essentially poach employment from our neighbors rather than the suburbs.
Because in most cases Vanguard isn't going to just pick up and move to Philadelphia because the city asked. That would likely cost the city millions of dollars to make that possible or even attractive enough for Vanguard to move..
ICYMI: One of the sources of job growth in Center City last year was Vanguard, which opened a satellite office on the west side of Center City. ISTR that when it was announced, reports said that Vanguard was doing this in order to hire younger residents who wished to live in the city and not have to commute out.
This is an example of a relatively new phenomenon: businesses following their employees to the places they want to live. This is a departure from the old pattern, where the business followed its boss to the place where he (and most of the time it's a he) wanted to live.
And: see my comment above about growing the jobs rather than swiping them.
kyb01 already got 22d Street, but I believe the BSLX to the Navy Yard will be underground, not above it, if and when built.
The entire South Broad subway tunnel lies beneath the water table as it is now, so that won't be an obstacle to extending it further.
Oh, and: I think I removed this from your post, but: the NHSL spur to KofP won't bypass the Village at Valley Forge - it will stop short of it. The approved alignment will proceed from the mall to the business park and run along First Avenue, ending at the Valley Forge Casino Resort.
A left turn and another half mile of viaduct and it would hit the Village. I asked about this the last time I was at a KOP BID forum; ISTR the person who filled me in said something about adding traffic to the freeway interchange right next to the Village as the reason against.
'
As cpomp said, it's not just the mall.
KofP is the second-largest employment center in the region after Center City Philadelphia itself. It's also the second-largest edge city on the East Coast, surpassed only by Tysons (Corner), Va. And the two edge cities are closer to each other than it may seem in terms of employment, retail space and commercial space (Tysons has more office space, KofP more industrial space).
Something you all may have missed, however, is that Center City added jobs at a pretty smart clip last year, indicating it may be pulling out of its low-grade funk.
ICYMI: One of the sources of job growth in Center City last year was Vanguard, which opened a satellite office on the west side of Center City. ISTR that when it was announced, reports said that Vanguard was doing this in order to hire younger residents who wished to live in the city and not have to commute out.
This is an example of a relatively new phenomenon: businesses following their employees to the places they want to live. This is a departure from the old pattern, where the business followed its boss to the place where he (and most of the time it's a he) wanted to live.
And: see my comment above about growing the jobs rather than swiping them.
I realized about 22nd street station, and ahh yes, remember now. At this point I find it underwhelming that the line will stop short of the Village (since that is where a lot of the development in KoP is taking place. Not that it will happen, but I am sure there is a way to extend the line to the Village, right?
I know Vanguard opened a satellite in CC (with plans to expand), but I was more referring to up and moving the entirety of operations from Malvern to CC. That won't happen, which is why I was advocating for the luring of jobs from elsewhere around the nation rather than the burbs.
Your last point is also excellent. You are the first to mention that point in this thread, focus on what we already have and grow it! University City has become a mini incubation hub. It would be amazing for the next facebook, amazon, tech firm, etc. to start and grow in Philadelphia. But that goes hand in hand with the business climate of Philadelphia.... and it all comes back to the leadership.... :/
well one not all commuters come from there and two it could include a connection to the Norristown line at the Norristown Transpo center. Remove the current Norristown station and put it there (at there NHSL) so it would have the connection (albeit a mile or two further than this proposal)
if extended the Norristown line could have also gotten some park and rides and alleviate the current Norristown stop for the RR
in a ideal world this could have gone up 422 to say Collegeville or Royersford with a (Hamiltonesque) park and ride up there somewhere (maybe the middle of 422 by SEI)
Now that right there is a great idea. A good phase three for the project perhaps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BK_PHL_DEL
It is fortunate to have such a major employer right now in the Philly region such as KOP but it might have been better if jobs were created and brewing in Philly first and THEN spill out to the nearby areas. The migration could at least be planned for, infrastructure-wise. As it is now, KOP competes with Philly for jobs and the reactionary planning like this rail extension is super expensive.
I don't agree that the KOP extension is reactionary. It's been in the works for quite awhile and meets a real need. There are folks living in the city who work at the mall, and there are tons of folks out in the KOP area that commute into the city via 76 every day.
Last edited by Flyers Girl; 01-31-2019 at 08:38 AM..
ICYMI: One of the sources of job growth in Center City last year was Vanguard, which opened a satellite office on the west side of Center City. ISTR that when it was announced, reports said that Vanguard was doing this in order to hire younger residents who wished to live in the city and not have to commute out.
This is an example of a relatively new phenomenon: businesses following their employees to the places they want to live. This is a departure from the old pattern, where the business followed its boss to the place where he (and most of the time it's a he) wanted to live.
Vanguard's Philly location is the Innovation Center, which was purposefully located away from HQ in Chester County so as to allow those folks to work in a "think tank" type of environment away from the influence of the company.
That would do absolutely nothing for all the reverse commuters going to KoP from 69th St who are stuck with the Rt 123 bus and all the traffic headaches that happen on that route.
Yeah, the NHSL extension will get folks closer to the jobs in KOP and provide better coverage. I think both extensions are needed though, ideally extending the Norristown regional line out to Reading (the old stations are still there for the most part), but Phoenixville is a good start and current push for it is promising.
Does anyone know why they decided not to utilize the freight ROW for at least a portion of the NHSL extension though? Couldn't cut a deal with the freight operator? Just seems like there's bandwidth there for extra tracks and maybe could have cut costs a bit as well as providing the future opportunity for expanding out to Exton. Sort of like a mini cross-county metro.
Yeah, I don't get the arguments against this. Improving connecting to the suburbs, especially near job centers, is always a good thing. We need that desperately.
And you know, it's not an either / or game. We can improve suburban connectivity AND have a conversation about making the city more attractive for jobs. We're not limited to one thing at a time.
I fully support this project. KOP is one of the biggest employment hubs in the Philly area. Rail service is definitely needed here. Even though it's not a 1-seat ride it's still a better transit option then taking the bus from KOP to Philly and having deal with that nightmarish traffic.
Does anyone know why they decided not to utilize the freight ROW for at least a portion of the NHSL extension though? Couldn't cut a deal with the freight operator? Just seems like there's bandwidth there for extra tracks and maybe could have cut costs a bit as well as providing the future opportunity for expanding out to Exton. Sort of like a mini cross-county metro.
Norfolk Southern, which owns the ex-Reading main line west from Philadelphia, has historically been cool towards the idea of sharing its tracks with local passenger trains.
I have, however, heard that they are willing to discuss letting regional passenger trains use its tracks to provide service to Phoenixville. That opens a window if true.
The real best-case scenario is to grow the jobs here rather than lure them from elsewhere.
Or, as the hashtag in the runup to the HQ2 reveal had it, #GrowTenAmazons.
That will still require some changes in policy and attitude, but it will produce more durable growth and employment and it won't require bribes, as luring companies from elsewhere usually does.
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It would certainly be ideal to rely on homegrown companies, but I don't know if we have the time for that. Even with all the great advances Philly is making, we're still a city mired in poverty with sub-par schools and a broken city government. None of these issues will make dramatic leaps forward until we get some serious tax dollars and some new blood in town. We're losing generations of kids while we slowly try to pull ourselves out the quicksand from the last several decades. I am a huge proponent of local companies and our incredible entrepreneurial spirit, but I don't see why we can't have both continued local growth while luring one or two more big companies to the city. Both causes help one another, and ultimately, the city itself.
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