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Yeah, the OP knows all about the process of evolution, and that it's a subdiscipline of Biology, which is a science.
He was trying for us to have some kind of "aha moment" of so called "Intelligent Design" by trying to use philosophy, which is strictly the study of ideas about processes and not the study of processes themselves.
All he got (and rightly so) was an admission that it's currently unknown whether or not there is any such "thing" guiding or allowing the process of evolution to occur. No unsubstantiated leaps of faith required.
OK...first off: Evolution IS taught in school. We don't call it "orthodox" though. And it is a science sub-discipline, usually a part of the Biology curriculum. it is not part of the Humanities as Philosophy or Religion is.
I'm not asking whether or not Evolution is being taught in school - my question is whether or not it SHOULD be taught in public school if presented with reference to an underlying philosophical view (no God necessary) as either expressed or inferred through the various techniques of instruction. Essentially, should we keep science in science class or should we permit certain philosophical views to be inserted in such teachings? If we're going to permit philosophical approaches/views that exclude God should we not also be prepared to allow instructional approaches that INCLUDE God?
Any thoughts on this?
As well, I did not mean to infer that the word "orthodox" is commonly used or associated by teachers. I chose to use this term in order to help communicate MY VIEW or DEFINITION of Evolution. My hope was to point my question at those who hold to the more classic view rather than say, theistic Evolution or various other perspectives that are not in line with the classic Darwinian view.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Southpaw
The "randomness" aspect of it comes from the very first step: random genetic mutations. IF those mutations, after many many generations, prove to add a helpful trait for their host, say, a horselike animal gets a random mutation that provides it with a slightly longer neck, and this longer neck enables it to reach more food from higher trees, then pretty soon, those animals with the longer necks will thrive. they will outlive their shorter-necked brethren whom were not lucky enough to get that advantageous mutation. they thrive; then dominate; and soon they are all that is left. That survived. So they pass their mutations on to their offspring and we have this new species and this once random and minority mutation-laden animal is the new norm!
What you seem to be describing here is "randomness" as being understood from the aspect of statistical probability. This approach has already been set forth several times here in the thread. I have no problem with the concept or notion of statistical probabilities but, at the end of the day, it's merely an assessment based upon observation.
Does the fact that we are able to observe various phenomena in such a way so as to be able to assign statistical probability help us to determine whether or not certain observable phenomena is unguided or bereft of design?
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Southpaw
So in a way it IS a survival of the fittest. As the "fittest" are the species who have physical traits that better enable them to adapt to their particular environment. I don't think Darwin ever used that term Survival of the Fittest, however. And in fact believe he disliked it. On this I am not sure, however.
We see Evolution all around us even today. Virus and bacteria are good examples. There was a moth who lived industrial era London who developed darker coloration like soot, from tjhe factories, that gave it desired camouflage from predators. This moth was once an aberration but then for obvious reasons outlived its unlucky lighter friends and then became the norm.
Humans today, you and I, have what Biologists and Anthropologists call vestigial traits.These are physicalities left over from our homo erectus and homo habilis ancestors. And go back to even when we were reptiles! Our tailbone! And you know how oyu get "goose bumps" when aroused or scared? This was from when we had fur and would raise our hackles and fur to make us appear larger and more substantial to potential enemies.
We homo sapiens are truly the Last Apes Standing. There have been some 27 different sub-species of the genus homo over a few million years. And wow! 99% of ALL life forms that EVER lived on this planet have gone extinct--the way of the Do-Do bird. It took a lot of luck to get us here. No question. for example, the asteroid that struck the Yucatan about 6 MYA. had that not happened and wiped-out the Dinos, reptiles and not mammals like is maybe the dominant and most evolved beings today! At the time of that Asteroid strike, we were small, rodent-like tree-climbing animals, like voles! And contrary to the false claims of non-believers in Evolution, we have PLENTY of what are called transitional fossils today. Museums fulls of them which show our step by step process. Google "transitional fossils" sometime. And prepare to be amazed! thousand of them!
Evolution science has passed every test thrown at it. Has never failed. Test after test confirms it. Darwin knew nothing of DNA, for example. But since we discovered it--the "software" molecules that provide the coding for the genes, that too continually supports the Theory of Evolution. And mind you, as opposed to what the Creationists say, Evolution is more than what they think "theory" means! In science a theory is NOT used the same way you or I use it in every day speech. Like "I have a theory what my boss s such a jerk." No..a Theory in science is something that was FIRST and idea, a hypothesis and then was subjected to test after test, but continued to be proved. And has no credible theory to contravene it. After more proof, theories become Laws. Like the Law of Gravity!
Off-hand, I would say that your view falls pretty much in line with other views that are commonly put forward here in the forum. As I've stated here before to others, it's not my purpose to debate the various aspects of Evolution such as speculation over changes of KINDS or 'survival of the fittest' or opinions about what either does or does not qualify as evidence for the existence of a 'transitional' creature of some sort or another.
You've mentioned DNA. Any thoughts on where the information written in the DNA originates?
Do you see Evolution as an alternative to creation? If so, how so?
That should never be said. separation of church and state. That phrase, "no god needed" is as bad as "god did it through evolution" in a public school. There is absolutely no proof of "no god needed". We don't even know what god is. All the teacher has to, should say, is that "we don't know why, but this is what it looks like what is going on now. Many people's and cultures have notions as to "How and why" they think things happen." Obviously toss in things about freedom of belief and public school science class only talk's about what we can measure. you know, Things like that. The stuff taught in science class is to help people form a belief. It is not against it, in an emotional way, per say.
Can I ask you want alternative creation story? greeks have a good one and so do some western plain indians' or is the bible the only other creation story allowed?
we not also be prepared to allow instructional approaches that INCLUDE God?
Any thoughts on this?
Introducing religious instruction in public schools is a tricky subject since it just replaces one evangelistic group (The Scientific Evolutionist Creationists) with the Biblical Creationists, and both groups will use to opportunity to begin instilling children with their faiths to further their own causes which essentially is about making money - via one means or another.
All discussion of evolution properly belongs in a philosophical forum where there is no coercion applied to belonging one story or another. The coercion applied by teachers and professors at all levels in the form of grades is to much for most students to resist - though I most certainly did when I attended school.
Still, children in one manner or another should be introduced to the various Creation stories of one form or another. But no chance that any creationist group (science, religious, or otherwise) will give way to an unbiased presentation in public schools. Too much money is involved so every pentends that their story is the right one.
1. So, what do these folks (proponents of orthodox Darwinian Evolution) mean when they use terms such as 'nature, randomness or chance?'
2. Can science answer the question of whether or not ANYTHING can or ever has happened totally 'unguided' at 'random' with no outside 'force' or 'power' to guide, create and/or sustain it?
3. Should orthodox Darwinian Evolution Theory be taught in public school if it is indeed classified as a PHILOSOPHY? [snip]
1. Scientists use chance, or randomness, to mean that when physical causes can result in any of several outcomes, we cannot predict what the outcome will be in any particular case.
2. No. Nothing in Science is absolute.
3. Evolution is a theory. Most people use the word 'theory' to mean an idea or hunch that someone has, but in Science the word 'theory' refers to the way that we interpret facts.
Evolutionary Theory is an explanation or model based on observation, experimentation, and reasoning, especially one that has been tested and confirmed as a general principle helping to explain and predict natural phenomena. As with any scientific theory, evolution is based on a careful and rational examination of the facts.
Last edited by texan2yankee; 08-23-2015 at 12:41 PM..
Still, children in one manner or another should be introduced to the various Creation stories of one form or another. But no chance that any creationist group (science, religious, or otherwise) will give way to an unbiased presentation in public schools.
You need to educate yourself before posting your typical nonsense.
Creationist and Science don't belong in the same sentence.
Creationists believe that the creation of the world and all its creatures took place in six calendar days; they therefore deny the theory of evolution.
Science has debunked the above myth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by richrf
All discussion of evolution properly belongs in a philosophical forum where there is no coercion applied to belonging one story or another.
Actually all discussions on Evolution can occur anywhere...but how valuable those discussions are will depend on how well the person discussing this topic understands Evolution. You have clearly demonstrated to all of us that you do not understand Evolution.
Evolutionary theory is a scientific theory dealing with scientific data, not a system of metaphysical beliefs or a religion.
Scientists are not afforded the luxury of a belief system, since what we believe does not matter. The same standard should hold true for every human, regardless of their scientific background.
1. Scientists use chance, or randomness, to mean that when physical causes can result in any of several outcomes, we cannot predict what the outcome will be in any particular case.
2. No. Nothing in Science is absolute.
3. Evolution is a theory. Most people use the word 'theory' to mean an idea or hunch that someone has, but in Science the word 'theory' refers to the way that we interpret facts.
Evolutionary Theory is an explanation or model based on observation, experimentation, and reasoning, especially one that has been tested and confirmed as a general principle helping to explain and predict natural phenomena. As with any scientific theory, evolution is based on a careful and rational examination of the facts.
The "observation" is that "things change". Interesting, but the Daoists reached the same observation thousands of years ago as did Heraclitus. But it's is a nice observation nonetheless.
Where things go awry are the reasons that science gives for the change which could be either:
1) I don't know. Fair enough. or
2) A Whopper of a story about chemicals magically becoming aware of each other and then starting to talk to each other while the Great Constraining Randomizer (analogous to God) starts mutating stuff in a precise way so that everything can change and continue to work just fine. The proof of course is the world we live in. This is the Faith of scientists, but like good religious dogma it is all accepted and no contradiction is permitted by the Faithful.
You need to educate yourself before posting your typical nonsense.
Creationist and Science don't belong in the same sentence.
Creationists believe that the creation of the world and all its creatures took place in six calendar days; they therefore deny the theory of evolution.
Science has debunked the above myth.
Actually all discussions on Evolution can occur anywhere...but how valuable those discussions are will depend on how well the person discussing this topic understands Evolution. You have clearly demonstrated to all of us that you do not understand Evolution.
Evolutionary theory is a scientific theory dealing with scientific data, not a system of metaphysical beliefs or a religion.
Scientists are not afforded the luxury of a belief system, since what we believe does not matter. The same standard should hold true for every human, regardless of their scientific background.
Yep. Science's answer is much more satisfying. It all just started magically with a Big, Big, Bang. What happened afterward is left as an homework assignment.
You have to be kidding. Anyone with any critical mind left after the brainwashing they get in school has to marvel at the silliness of this all.
Yep. Science's answer is much more satisfying. It all just started magically with a Big, Big, Bang. What happened afterward is left as an homework assignment.
The Big Bang Theory has nothing to do with the topic of Evolution.
The scientific data that we have supporting the Theory of Evolution is solid and makes perfect since to a anyone with the ability to understand it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by richrf
You have to be kidding. Anyone with any critical mind left after the brainwashing they get in school has to marvel at the silliness of this all.
You don't get it do you?
Let me repeat: Evolutionary theory is a scientific theory dealing with scientific data, not a system of metaphysical beliefs or a religion.
Scientists are not afforded the luxury of a belief system, since what we believe does not matter. The same standard should hold true for every human, regardless of their scientific background.
The Big Bang Theory has nothing to do with the topic of Evolution.
The scientific data that we have supporting the Theory of Evolution is solid and makes perfect since to a anyone with the ability to understand it.
You don't get it do you?
Let me repeat: Evolutionary theory is a scientific theory dealing with scientific data, not a system of metaphysical beliefs or a religion.
Scientists are not afforded the luxury of a belief system, since what we believe does not matter. The same standard should hold true for every human, regardless of their scientific background.
Oh I get it alright. And if you repeat a story often enough, especially if you are forcing someone to believe it in school or else, I'm sure you'll gain new converts. But even a cursory look at the so-called theory quickly reveals that all science did was make up some newfangled words to replace Genesis and God, and called it Macaroni.
The Big, Big, Bang started it all! Yes, even Evolution. The rest kind of just happened. Nice Theory.
What we need more of in this world are people with critical thinking and not just blind followers of a religion, particularly state sanctioned religions such as Evolution.
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