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I came across an excellent article tying God, science and philosophy together and since this is the philosophy area, I think those interested in the discussion could really get something from the article: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/14/bo...anted=all&_r=0 And, yes, it is long but it is a deep subject.
The philosophy is really very interesting and it does, as I expected, weigh in from different directions. I always perceived that philosophy was more about "thought" rather than science.
Basically, from what I have read, it would do no good for me to try to explain to anyone who just absolutely refuses to acknowledge the possibility of God so I have not went into detail as the brave Miss Hepburn did in an earlier post.
What is interesting and what I keep coming back to is that the OP is in the searching stage because OP desperately wants to believe that God doesn't exist beyond a shadow of a doubt. The doubt is there. I am not here asking others to make me believe that God doesn't exist because I am so sure that God does exist that I need the opinion of no one else. That's a darn good place to be.
We were created to have a relationship with our Creator. Because he wants us to choose him and not be robots about it, he gave us free will. And you are free to execute it as you will.
Basically, from what I have read, it would do no good for me to try to explain to anyone who just absolutely refuses to acknowledge the possibility of God so I have not went into detail as the brave Miss Hepburn did in an earlier post.
What is interesting and what I keep coming back to is that the OP is in the searching stage because OP desperately wants to believe that God doesn't exist beyond a shadow of a doubt. The doubt is there. I am not here asking others to make me believe that God doesn't exist because I am so sure that God does exist that I need the opinion of no one else. That's a darn good place to be.
No, I absolutely believe it's possible, but the likelihood seems infinitesimally low to me. I'm both agnostic and atheist: As god is typically described, I don't think it's possible to know for certain if it exists or not. But since I've never been presented with any evidence such a thing does exist, I don't think it does. It certainly could exist, but I'm highly doubtful.
Based on the argument you've made, I'm baffled by your certainty. I kind of understand why you believe it exists, but the level of certainty you seen to have seem irrational to me.
Panapolicriddle: Yes, because you actually met him/her (a stranger in a crowd) in a tangible way, perceiving him directly with your senses. While he might no longer be in your presence, you can certainly find him/her and prove beyond a reasonable doubt he/she exists based on physical evidence the way you can with any other living person.
I'm just asking for the same tangible evidence for god. If it truly exists, then where can I find it specifically? Are there specific coordinates, either on this planet, or somewhere else in the visible universe you can provide? If not, then you can't confidently know it exists.
My first instinct is to tell you that I don't have time to waste talking to a computer program, as in you as a human being don't exist because I haven't seen you, felt you, touched you, heard you, or tasted you. (Let's stick to the basic five senses here, shall we?)
You see, as I explained in my post, I have seen, felt (physically), touched, and heard God, and I am always in His Presence, as surely as He lives within me. (I'll leave taste out of this for the moment.) So since I have perceived God with at least four of the physical senses that we both agree exist, it follows that God must exist - by your own line of reasoning.
I find your line of reasoning curious. You have appointed yourself as one who is intelligent enough to set the criteria for God's existence being factual - or not. What makes you think that you are capable of measuring the infinite with your finite mind? That's a trifle absurd, don't you think so?
Why not ask a blind person to describe color to you? Color exists (well, it doesn't, actually, but it appears to exist as long as light does), doesn't it? After all, we can see it, we can be moved by it (we can register the effects of different colors on the brain), and we can even manipulate it to change its shade or hue. But a blind person has no experience with color and so does not and cannot know that it exists.
For the purposes of your argument, and within the boundaries of your self-imposed reasoning, you are blind. That is why you cannot 'find God,' as you put it. You have never experienced His 'color.'
Why not ask a blind person to describe color to you? Color exists (well, it doesn't, actually, but it appears to exist as long as light does), doesn't it? After all, we can see it, we can be moved by it (we can register the effects of different colors on the brain), and we can even manipulate it to change its shade or hue. But a blind person has no experience with color and so does not and cannot know that it exists.
For the purposes of your argument, and within the boundaries of your self-imposed reasoning, you are blind. That is why you cannot 'find God,' as you put it. You have never experienced His 'color.'
Not aimed at me but...
I'm an ex- Christian. There are many of us former brainwashed people (fair to say since you referred to non-believers as being blind) who came to their senses. I am one of them and spent part of adulthood as a believer.
Among all things I have done and experienced in life, believing in an invisable diety which is impossible to prove, is what I am ashamed of the most. I find it embarrassing to admit I was a former follower. No god ever did anything for me and gave me no reason for a thinking human like myself that he/it/whatever is responsible for any "meaning."
All the time I used to spend praying I might as well be talking to a rock. It had the same effect.
I'm an ex- Christian. There are many of us former brainwashed people (fair to say since you referred to non-believers as being blind) who came to their senses. I am one of them and spent part of adulthood as a believer.
Among all things I have done and experienced in life, believing in an invisable diety which is impossible to prove, is what I am ashamed of the most. I find it embarrassing to admit I was a former follower. No god ever did anything for me and gave me no reason for a thinking human like myself that he/it/whatever is responsible for any "meaning."
All the time I used to spend praying I might as well be talking to a rock. It had the same effect.
There is no such thing as an ex-Christian. If you were a Christian, you would still be one. Millions of people call themselves Christians, but their 'fruit' says otherwise.
I did not call unbelievers blind. I was simply using an analogy - and your line of reasoning to point out to you why you can't seem to find the God you claim to be seeking. The One you said you would 'Love to find.'
I notice that you neglected to quote the part of my post in which I answered your questions regarding physical proof of God's existence - again, by your own reasoning.
Somehow, I don't think you're looking for God - an argument maybe, but not God.
I've done as you asked and answered your questions, and my answers prove (by your reasoning) that God does indeed exist.
Walls of quotemining do not constitute evidence, proof, or substantiation in this forum. You must have actual logic and reason on tap, not your dogma of choice.
Excuse me for butting in, but since I too would write that I know God exists, I'd like to answer your questions, if you don't mind.
Then please do so. Nothing in your post accomplishes answering anything. You describe things that you feel subjectively and personally, and ideas you are fond of. This does not constitute substantiation or logical argument.
Then please do so. Nothing in your post accomplishes answering anything. You describe things that you feel subjectively and personally, and ideas you are fond of. This does not constitute substantiation or logical argument.
Morning mordant!
Go back and read my posts (plural) again. Since I proved that I perceived God with four out of five of the physical senses that we all agree exist, by Pan's reasoning, God must therefore exist. Come back when you've read with full comprehension and perhaps we can further discuss the subject.
Have a good day; I'm off to bed now.
Mahrie.
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