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Location: A circle of Hell so insidious, infernal and odious, Dante dared not map it
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Originally Posted by AZ bound
While I agree, these numbers can be misleading. It shows a higher percentage in Phoenix than Phoenix metro. I guess it could lead one to believe that the rural people ain't as edumacated.
The difference was pretty negligible though. The City of Phoenix ranked .3 percentage points higher than metro Phoenix. I think the fact that Phoenix proper jumped 14 ranks higher compared to other cities indicates that more educated people in a few other cities live in neighboring cities/suburbs. In any case, collectively they affect the entire area. I think if a higher percentage of college-educated people lived in the Phoenix area, it would seem a bit more attractive to corporate heads.
Former CEO of Intel, Craig Barrett, said that Intel would not have located plants here if the education funding situation then had been what it is now. Goes to show how important a good public education system is to major employers and how slashing it is bad for business and bad for the future of our state. Barrett's comments were echoed by several executives of leading Arizona businesses. I hope Gov. Brewer and the legislature are paying attention.
In this current climate, I would refuse to send my Kid's to (nearly all) the AZ public K-12 schools. Even in some of those "highly educated" districts. Instead, I'd stay in MN and freeze my butt off. It's a top priority of mine to give my children the best possible education.
In MN we have also had a lot of budget cuts. Our MN district is crying bloody murder because of the cuts and we currently spend $9200 per pupil! See what some other districts spend (source: Graphic: Minnesota cost per student | INFORUM | Fargo, ND )
AZ is falling behind. People who value education may only relocate after they become empty Nester's (or have enough resources to send their Kid's to a private school).
Last edited by Kimballette; 03-30-2011 at 03:28 PM..
Reason: Copyright issues - please post link and snippet instead. Thanks.
ACT and SAT average scores for a state are mostly controlled by demographics. To get a good comparison you should look at test scores broken down by a demographic, race, for example.
I know that Wisconson also has very high ACT scores compared to Texas, but when broken down by race Wisconsin trails in 17 of 18 categories.
Below is a post that explains how this is possible.
ACT and SAT average scores for a state are mostly controlled by demographics. To get a good comparison you should look at test scores broken down by a demographic, race, for example.
I know that Wisconson also has very high ACT scores compared to Texas, but when broken down by race Wisconsin trails in 17 of 18 categories.
Below is a post that explains how this is possible.
I read your link. I'd like to add that just because you spend a ton of money doesn't necessarily create a high test score / brain power. In fact, there can be a negitive correlation between per pupil spending and results.
For example, the MPLS school districts spend $15K per pupil yet their test scores are lower than districts that spend $9K. The dollars are spent on problems versus education (counselors, psychologists, etc). Culturally speaking, some ethnicities don't value high test scores. I'd assume that is why India can outperform USA math scores yet spend a FRACTION on per pupil spending.
I'd also anticipate that there are a lot of white TX students that attend private K-12 schools. So as you see, attempting to extract what amount is enough is difficult. I will also say that MN schools are chalk full of students that coast. The district can triple the price tag and test scores would be about the same for a lot of students. But there is also a point where cuts WILL have an impact. AZ IMHO has crossed that line.
On average, MN residents value a quality education and are willing to spend enough $$'s to get the proper student to teacher ratios etc. If your family mandates performance out of their children, they will easily outperform the averages. Saying that. I see what $9200 gets me and that is about as low as I would want to spend. I'd be nervous r-e-a-l-l-y nervous to send my Kid's to a school that spends $6K. It's not enough.
I'd be nervous r-e-a-l-l-y nervous to send my Kid's to a school that spends $6K. It's not enough.
It sounds like you care about your kids education and will do what is needed to make sure they get as much from their schools as possible. That more than anything else will determine your kids future.
Adam Carolla has a video rant you can find at youtube about how his high school had some kids that you know would do well and other kids you knew were heading to McDonald's when their schooling was over. It all boils down to what parents are willing to accept. Heck, most kids could probably hit the 95 percentile if their parents refused to accept failure.
The dollar amount spent per pupil is not a good indicator. How can private schools do at least as good a job spending less? It all comes down to what parents demand of their kids.
It sounds like you care about your kids education and will do what is needed to make sure they get as much from their schools as possible. That more than anything else will determine your kids future.
Adam Carolla has a video rant you can find at youtube about how his high school had some kids that you know would do well and other kids you knew were heading to McDonald's when their schooling was over. It all boils down to what parents are willing to accept. Heck, most kids could probably hit the 95 percentile if their parents refused to accept failure.
The dollar amount spent per pupil is not a good indicator. How can private schools do at least as good a job spending less? It all comes down to what parents demand of their kids.
You are spot on. When my daughter was in band, they bragged about how good the students did in the class room. That was true. In hockey, 70% of the kids were had at least a B average. That was also true.
I have heard the coaches in track and cross country tout how well the Kid's do in school. It seems the coaching staff created a reasons why the Kid's do well to rationalize their sport. For example, my Son's cross country couch theorized that people who run though pain are disciplined to study hard. I suppose that might be the case but I think the correlation deals with involved families. Involved kids normally have involved parents and involved families have higher expectations. Just ask any teacher what parents come to the conferences. I've never missed one yet while many struggling ones stay home.
We have placed a lot of emphasis on high performance in the class room and I did so by being positive and encouraging. If I'm allowed to boost, my daughter should get accepted to the UofMN dental program this coming year (1400 students usually apply and with 95 slots). My son will graduate from high school with two years of college next year and is hoping to get accepted at Harvard. He's #1 in his class (out of 670 students). Worse case, he will get plenty of scholarships for his achievements. Both of them and not necessarily "gifted". For example, my Son took his ACT in 9th grade and got a 22 (average). His last test score was 31 (top 2%) by taking the test 10 times in a row. He really need to hit a 33 (top 1%) for Harvard (as well as many other attributes) and he is practicing this weekend again. So horsepower can win in the end. It's now his goal to be the best that he can be. If they were born in a different family, they both could very easily be "average".
That being said, it's our family culture to do our best. I have spent $$'s on band classes, tutoring to hit the DAT score, paying for academic camps etc. MN also has a culture that values education. I'm sorry but I think that culture is missing in AZ. Some people get it while other don't. I recently bought a winter home in Surprise. A neighbor assumed my Kid's would be going to the local school. They told me how exceptional the schools were etc. I simply smiled and said that I was happy the schools were such high quality. Surprise only spends about $4K per student. There have to be plenty of compromises when MN spends over double that amount and MN feels the cuts at $9200.
So let's say I got a job offer to move to AZ. I'd turn it down because of the schools. So while Intel makes decisions on moving to AZ based off of the education investment, so do people individuals who value education. Does AZ really want to turn away people who demand a high quality of education??
Last edited by MN-Born-n-Raised; 03-30-2011 at 06:30 PM..
I read your link. I'd like to add that just because you spend a ton of money doesn't necessarily create a high test score / brain power. In fact, there can be a negitive correlation between per pupil spending and results.
For example, the MPLS school districts spend $15K per pupil yet their test scores are lower than districts that spend $9K. The dollars are spent on problems versus education (counselors, psychologists, etc). Culturally speaking, some ethnicities don't value high test scores. I'd assume that is why India can outperform USA math scores yet spend a FRACTION on per pupil spending.
I'd also anticipate that there are a lot of white TX students that attend private K-12 schools. So as you see, attempting to extract what amount is enough is difficult. I will also say that MN schools are chalk full of students that coast. The district can triple the price tag and test scores would be about the same for a lot of students. But there is also a point where cuts WILL have an impact. AZ IMHO has crossed that line.
On average, MN residents value a quality education and are willing to spend enough $$'s to get the proper student to teacher ratios etc. If your family mandates performance out of their children, they will easily outperform the averages. Saying that. I see what $9200 gets me and that is about as low as I would want to spend. I'd be nervous r-e-a-l-l-y nervous to send my Kid's to a school that spends $6K. It's not enough.
We are in the same boat. We have found a way to scrap up the $9000 a year to keep them out of the public schools here. I am not saying they are all bad, but you can definitely see where the priorities are in the state. I hope it can improve some day.
We have found a way to scrap up the $9000 a year to keep them out of the public schools here.
We ended up moving to an area with an outstanding school district. What that really means is the kids have parents that make sure they do their homework. The teachers are more than just day-care for parents that have other things on their mind.
This city was built on the premise of leisure and retires. The mass amount of employment has always been service based to serve those people. We haven't been above middle ground on education for years, it isn't a priority. No one has any interest in turning the Valley into a highly educated family orientated state. It just isn't Phoenix's Imo, never has been.
There are plenty of states that dedicate their time to being that way, mostly colder northern states. I wonder if it's because they have nothing to do but study inside when it's cold and snowy?
These companies here will just continue to fly in educated individuals to fill those positions. When I lived in Chandler I was surrounded by transplants that moved here for Intel. The only good thing about that is that it gives the people of Phoenix more service jobs, which they will readily fill with uneducated people whom grow up here. So it all works out in the end. Hopefully some of locals who are educated won't have to move away for a good job anymore.
If you read any history of Phoenix you will see the goals have been reached for this city. It is in the mind set. Come back to retire, I will! \
That said, my son had a great education in Chandler but he was in the gifted program so I am unsure of how the regular system stands up. I did have to spend plenty of money donating for the programs, field trips and things the teachers were lacking because of low funding.
Spending isn't always the answer. John Stossel had a brilliant special called Dumb In America about our horrid public school systems. Money hardly solves anything. My favorite part was the bare bones private schools that operated with less money than public schools, paid teachers more and turned out better educated kids. You can watch it on YouTube.
It's not about how much is spent but how it's spent.
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Instead, I'd stay in MN and freeze my butt off. It's a top priority of mine to give my children the best possible education. 
I'd like to add that just because you spend a ton of money doesn't necessarily create a high test score / brain power. In fact, there can be a negitive correlation between per pupil spending and results.
The district can triple the price tag and test scores would be about the same for a lot of students. But there is also a point where cuts WILL have an impact. AZ IMHO has crossed that line.
It's now his goal to be the best that he can be. If they were born in a different family, they both could very easily be "average".
