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I built my self a shop trailer, and mounted my solar panels on it ,my battery system is on it as well.
When I was renting , I merely ran a line to the house and provided my own power for certain things and attached nothing to the house .
When I move the trailer goes with me.
Now that I am in a permeant location , I can make my own modifications to the house in wiring and such freely but still the trailer set up is still doing it's job.
I have added to it as well through the years both panels and wind mill and more battery bank.
Never did the leasing , I figured I had to learn how things worked to be a good steward of it .
It has been a worth while investment through the years ,and in the event something happens to me , my son can take it where ever he goes.
I've been looking at real estate in some Phoenix area age-restricted communities and, thanks to this forum, I've found some very interesting listings. One solar equipped house was gorgeous, in a great location and seemed to be priced below market value. I noticed in the listing "comments" there was no mention of the solar panels which were visible in the listing pictures. As I read the listing details where room sizes, lot size, financing details are given I noticed the word 'Solar', followed by the word 'leased'. Oh, that explains it. What the listing details didn't disclose is how much a month the new owner would have to pay for that lease. If I were to make an offer it would include "seller shall pay off entire balance owing on solar lease contract" !
Well when we bought our house here in February we bought a house with a solar lease. I contacted Solar City and discussed this property with them and knew exactly what we would be paying each month and the duration of the lease. When the deal was finalized and the credit check went through with the Solar Company, we had a printout stating that our solar lease would not change and gave use a year by year total (that was the same ever year) for the duration of the lease at $131 monthly payments.
And while you definitely don't come out as far ahead as owning, our highest electric bill this summer was $130 and with the on-peak credit we have that continues to rollover every month, we no longer have to even pay attention to on peak/off peak hours and we actually save a bit of money running things on peak to try to use all the kWh we have credited that we surely won't use through the year. As I stated earlier in some posts our house is 2300 sq/ft with pool pump 12 hours and AC 79 day and 76 night. We'll be getting a small amount back at the end of the year credited to our bill as well in terms of cash dollars since those credits will continue to add up as the weather cools.
I'm happy with the lease we have since we loved the house and it already came with it. Do your due diligence and checking on things yourself and you'll be fine. I'm not sure how other companies work but Solar City was great to work with and getting me paperwork to answer my questions.
My project is in permitting with the city. It was submitted about 3 weeks ago and the initial one was denied (as most seem to be the first time around), waiting for them to resubmit with whatever needed fixed to be fixed (which I'm not sure why it was denied, should find out this week).
This is what the permits look like...
Have you given any thought to having them wire you up for a battery bank? I had a couple of solar companies come out for a quote and asked them about doing a storage bank so we could go completely off line (in case of power outage) and they said (if you lease) "we cannot install such a link BUT what your electrician does after we leave is up to you".
I had ideas of putting several deep cycle batteries in a storage shed on the side of the house with a cutover switch that would supply enough power to run our home at night if APS went dark for whatever reason. Our panels were going to be set up for 95-100% generation.
Yesterday I had the chance to attend a class taught by a local lawyer that reviews solar leases on a regular basis. I thought I might share some information with all of you in case it's something you are considering for your home.
As a disclaimer, I am NOT a lawyer and obviously have very limited knowledge on this subject. I can get you started and headed in the right direction, but as always, it's best to do your own research so you know what exactly you are getting in to.
I missed the total number of residential solar systems on homes currently, but out of those 85% are leased systems. I am mostly going to talk about leased systems as those seem to be the ones with potential issues. Some of these points will pertain to lease or owned systems though.
1. Most are long term leases with a 20 year minimum. Most systems will be outdated by the end of the lease and there is typically an automatic renewal provision (or similar provision) for another "term" (20 years)
2. Make sure you look at the additional charges on the lease. There will be installation fees, typically $3,000-$5,000, which will be a front end charge. There is typically an annual price escalation of 2.9%-3.1% automatically in most leases. There can be a monthly charge for the net metering system from your electric company
3. You, the homeowner, do not get the tax credits, incentives or any other government benefits with a lease. The lease company gets it all.
4. Make sure you understand what the kilowatt charge is. It may not be a big enough system to cover your electric needs. You need to know how much the system will provide over the year vs what you typically use. You must also enter into an agreement with your electric company to provide to home during the time you aren't generating power as most leased systems won't have the ability to "bank" extra power made but not used.
5. Typically, you will never have the right to buy the system, only renew. You can upgrade but they will typically require a new agreement. Some leases will allow you to prepay and might give you a prepayment discount.
6. All prohibit the use for heating pool or spa. They can terminate the lease but you will still be liable for the reminder of the lease.
7. Before signing for a solar lease, have a lawyer review the lease so you know what you are signing!
Let's assume you have moved forward and now have a solar lease in place on your home. You now have some potential issues when it comes to selling your home:
1. Buyers must qualify for the lease which in turn could affect their loan qualification.
2. FHA will no longer do loans with homes that have solar leases, so now you have limited your buyer market. I spoke with 3 different appraisers and they do not give any value for a leased system, but do give value to an owned system. They would not give me a dollar amount as it will vary by how old the system is, how big etc.
3. Even if the buyer does assume the lease, the seller could still be liable for the lease if it's not paid. You must get a written release from your solar lease company
4. If the buyer can not qualify or will not assume the lease, the seller can still opt to prepay or have the system removed to their new home at their cost plus repairs to the roof from the removal. Lease companies will usually only guarantee roof leaks the first year the system is installed.
5. If the home is sold again, that seller and buyer will face the same issues. How old will the system be at that point and will it open another can of worms?
Again, I am also still learning on this subject but want to give you food for thought. Do your research if you are considering a solar lease and I can't say it strongly enough, it's best to have a lawyer look over the contract before signing!
Yesterday I had the chance to attend a class taught by a local lawyer that reviews solar leases on a regular basis. I thought I might share some information with all of you in case it's something you are considering for your home.
As a disclaimer, I am NOT a lawyer and obviously have very limited knowledge on this subject. I can get you started and headed in the right direction, but as always, it's best to do your own research so you know what exactly you are getting in to.
Thanks for sharing your info with us Pam! I would stay away from lease and buy instead.
Yesterday I had the chance to attend a class taught by a local lawyer that reviews solar leases on a regular basis. I thought I might share some information with all of you in case it's something you are considering for your home.
As a disclaimer, I am NOT a lawyer and obviously have very limited knowledge on this subject. I can get you started and headed in the right direction, but as always, it's best to do your own research so you know what exactly you are getting in to.
I missed the total number of residential solar systems on homes currently, but out of those 85% are leased systems. I am mostly going to talk about leased systems as those seem to be the ones with potential issues. Some of these points will pertain to lease or owned systems though.
1. Most are long term leases with a 20 year minimum. Most systems will be outdated by the end of the lease and there is typically an automatic renewal provision (or similar provision) for another "term" (20 years)
2. Make sure you look at the additional charges on the lease. There will be installation fees, typically $3,000-$5,000, which will be a front end charge. There is typically an annual price escalation of 2.9%-3.1% automatically in most leases. There can be a monthly charge for the net metering system from your electric company
3. You, the homeowner, do not get the tax credits, incentives or any other government benefits with a lease. The lease company gets it all.
4. Make sure you understand what the kilowatt charge is. It may not be a big enough system to cover your electric needs. You need to know how much the system will provide over the year vs what you typically use. You must also enter into an agreement with your electric company to provide to home during the time you aren't generating power as most leased systems won't have the ability to "bank" extra power made but not used.
5. Typically, you will never have the right to buy the system, only renew. You can upgrade but they will typically require a new agreement. Some leases will allow you to prepay and might give you a prepayment discount.
6. All prohibit the use for heating pool or spa. They can terminate the lease but you will still be liable for the reminder of the lease.
7. Before signing for a solar lease, have a lawyer review the lease so you know what you are signing!
Let's assume you have moved forward and now have a solar lease in place on your home. You now have some potential issues when it comes to selling your home:
1. Buyers must qualify for the lease which in turn could affect their loan qualification.
2. FHA will no longer do loans with homes that have solar leases, so now you have limited your buyer market. I spoke with 3 different appraisers and they do not give any value for a leased system, but do give value to an owned system. They would not give me a dollar amount as it will vary by how old the system is, how big etc.
3. Even if the buyer does assume the lease, the seller could still be liable for the lease if it's not paid. You must get a written release from your solar lease company
4. If the buyer can not qualify or will not assume the lease, the seller can still opt to prepay or have the system removed to their new home at their cost plus repairs to the roof from the removal. Lease companies will usually only guarantee roof leaks the first year the system is installed.
5. If the home is sold again, that seller and buyer will face the same issues. How old will the system be at that point and will it open another can of worms?
Again, I am also still learning on this subject but want to give you food for thought. Do your research if you are considering a solar lease and I can't say it strongly enough, it's best to have a lawyer look over the contract before signing!
Thank you Pam, I'd heard this same info from our friend (RE agent) and that is why I've steered clear of solar so far. Maybe when the cost drops and there are better panels?
I'm not willing to pay out the nose for a short term gain which is what it is imo.
I gotta chime in on this because from my pretty extensive research, there are a lot of falses in the above statements.
Was the class taught by someone on APS's payroll? Yeesh!
I looked at many options and talked to a lot of companies before moving forward and even though I'm doing a purchase which isn't affected by the points made, I also looked at leases and was very close to doing a lease, so much so that I got the actual lease agreement from them ready to sign.
A lot of it is of course going to depend on the solar and/or leasing company. SolarCity seems to be by far the biggest/most popular and unfortunately they do seem to have the worst deal when it comes to what happens with the lease. With them, you cannot buy out the system, you do have to renew or they come take it away. That is NOT the case with all solar leases, and actually the exception in my experience as all other companies I talked to had a buyout option, some after only a couple of years, others after 7 years.
Looking at all the points one by one...
1. Most are long term leases with a 20 year minimum. Most systems will be outdated by the end of the lease and there is typically an automatic renewal provision (or similar provision) for another "term" (20 years)
The outdated argument is probably true, though the solar industry/technology doesn't seem to be moving as fast as other areas. The auto renew I did not see in any lease paperwork. My paperwork wasn't from SolarCity though so maybe theirs has that, but the company I was looking at did not have that.
2. Make sure you look at the additional charges on the lease. There will be installation fees, typically $3,000-$5,000, which will be a front end charge. There is typically an annual price escalation of 2.9%-3.1% automatically in most leases. There can be a monthly charge for the net metering system from your electric company
This is pretty false. No lease I looked at had an installation fee unless you chose to. For example, you could pay $5,000 up front but then your monthly payments would be lower, kind of like buying a car. It was optional though and you could absolutely do $0 out of pocket. Same wtih the annual price escalation...optional. If you go with the escalation, then your monthly payments initially would be lower and would go up, but you could go with no escalation and have a fixed payment for the life of the lease.
3. You, the homeowner, do not get the tax credits, incentives or any other government benefits with a lease. The lease company gets it all.
This is true, but at the same time, people need to realize that what means. It's not a tax rebate so you don't actually get that money back, it's a credit applied toward what you owe and a lot of people may not even owe as much as the credit is or it would take them years to get it all by adjusting their withholdings. The leasing company gets the tax credit which is why the payments are typically lower than what a loan would be (the tax credit acts like a down payment in a way when doing a car lease)
4. Make sure you understand what the kilowatt charge is. It may not be a big enough system to cover your electric needs. You need to know how much the system will provide over the year vs what you typically use. You must also enter into an agreement with your electric company to provide to home during the time you aren't generating power as most leased systems won't have the ability to "bank" extra power made but not used.
Knowing what your usage is goes without saying I think, but the second part about not banking extra power is false. If you get on a Net Metering plan with APS, then you do bank extra kW that you produce and they are applied toward future months.
5. Typically, you will never have the right to buy the system, only renew. You can upgrade but they will typically require a new agreement. Some leases will allow you to prepay and might give you a prepayment discount.
I would say it's the reverse of that, typically you DO have the right to buy the system. Again, only SolarCity seems to not let you buy it out, all other companies I talked to had the option to buy the system and it was actually spelled out on how much it would cost after each year of the lease.
6. All prohibit the use for heating pool or spa. They can terminate the lease but you will still be liable for the reminder of the lease.
Never heard of this or saw it in any paperwork. Again I have the actual lease contract paperwork and there is no mention of this anywhere.
The part about after the lease is in place is mostly accurate from my research. The new buyer does have to qualify for the lease and I can see the mental roadblock for people, though sometimes unjustified. You're going to have an electric bill anyway, so does it really matter if the money goes to APS or if it goes to the solar lease + some to APS if the total you're paying is less than what just the APS bill would be? But again, I get that people don't really want that burden and being "forced" into something...I mean, if things get tough, you could just shut off your electricity to save money, right. Joking, kind of.
The FHA bit though is really a killer though and many people go with an FHA loan so you would really be limiting your buyers. That alone would be enough to get me to not do a solar lease, but all other parts I think were pretty false or inaccurate in what the guy teaching the class said from my experience.
I gotta chime in on this because from my pretty extensive research, there are a lot of falses in the above statements.
Was the class taught by someone on APS's payroll? Yeesh!
I looked at many options and talked to a lot of companies before moving forward and even though I'm doing a purchase which isn't affected by the points made, I also looked at leases and was very close to doing a lease, so much so that I got the actual lease agreement from them ready to sign.
A lot of it is of course going to depend on the solar and/or leasing company. SolarCity seems to be by far the biggest/most popular and unfortunately they do seem to have the worst deal when it comes to what happens with the lease. With them, you cannot buy out the system, you do have to renew or they come take it away. That is NOT the case with all solar leases, and actually the exception in my experience as all other companies I talked to had a buyout option, some after only a couple of years, others after 7 years.
Looking at all the points one by one...
1. Most are long term leases with a 20 year minimum. Most systems will be outdated by the end of the lease and there is typically an automatic renewal provision (or similar provision) for another "term" (20 years)
The outdated argument is probably true, though the solar industry/technology doesn't seem to be moving as fast as other areas. The auto renew I did not see in any lease paperwork. My paperwork wasn't from SolarCity though so maybe theirs has that, but the company I was looking at did not have that.
2. Make sure you look at the additional charges on the lease. There will be installation fees, typically $3,000-$5,000, which will be a front end charge. There is typically an annual price escalation of 2.9%-3.1% automatically in most leases. There can be a monthly charge for the net metering system from your electric company
This is pretty false. No lease I looked at had an installation fee unless you chose to. For example, you could pay $5,000 up front but then your monthly payments would be lower, kind of like buying a car. It was optional though and you could absolutely do $0 out of pocket. Same wtih the annual price escalation...optional. If you go with the escalation, then your monthly payments initially would be lower and would go up, but you could go with no escalation and have a fixed payment for the life of the lease.
3. You, the homeowner, do not get the tax credits, incentives or any other government benefits with a lease. The lease company gets it all.
This is true, but at the same time, people need to realize that what means. It's not a tax rebate so you don't actually get that money back, it's a credit applied toward what you owe and a lot of people may not even owe as much as the credit is or it would take them years to get it all by adjusting their withholdings. The leasing company gets the tax credit which is why the payments are typically lower than what a loan would be (the tax credit acts like a down payment in a way when doing a car lease)
4. Make sure you understand what the kilowatt charge is. It may not be a big enough system to cover your electric needs. You need to know how much the system will provide over the year vs what you typically use. You must also enter into an agreement with your electric company to provide to home during the time you aren't generating power as most leased systems won't have the ability to "bank" extra power made but not used.
Knowing what your usage is goes without saying I think, but the second part about not banking extra power is false. If you get on a Net Metering plan with APS, then you do bank extra kW that you produce and they are applied toward future months.
5. Typically, you will never have the right to buy the system, only renew. You can upgrade but they will typically require a new agreement. Some leases will allow you to prepay and might give you a prepayment discount.
I would say it's the reverse of that, typically you DO have the right to buy the system. Again, only SolarCity seems to not let you buy it out, all other companies I talked to had the option to buy the system and it was actually spelled out on how much it would cost after each year of the lease.
6. All prohibit the use for heating pool or spa. They can terminate the lease but you will still be liable for the reminder of the lease.
Never heard of this or saw it in any paperwork. Again I have the actual lease contract paperwork and there is no mention of this anywhere.
The part about after the lease is in place is mostly accurate from my research. The new buyer does have to qualify for the lease and I can see the mental roadblock for people, though sometimes unjustified. You're going to have an electric bill anyway, so does it really matter if the money goes to APS or if it goes to the solar lease + some to APS if the total you're paying is less than what just the APS bill would be? But again, I get that people don't really want that burden and being "forced" into something...I mean, if things get tough, you could just shut off your electricity to save money, right. Joking, kind of.
The FHA bit though is really a killer though and many people go with an FHA loan so you would really be limiting your buyers. That alone would be enough to get me to not do a solar lease, but all other parts I think were pretty false or inaccurate in what the guy teaching the class said from my experience.
Class was taught by a local lawyer. I have no idea of his qualifications but thought he brought up some really good points to think about. Also remember, he was talking in general terms. Of course, every company is going to have a different lease and lease terms, so it really wasn't a one size fits all type of situation. I think his point was to bring up possibilities of things he has seen on various leases he has reviewed.
Personally, I don't feel it's fair to say that what he is saying is inaccurate unless you have seen every lease he has looked at in the past. Could some of it be wrong, sure. I am sure companies revise their leases over time.
The part about him saying "most" or "all" to a lot of the points is what makes it inaccurate. He could have said "some" but maying most or all sounds like he has an agenda. Like I said, in my experience (of getting about 7-8 lease quotes), I found it to be the opposite of what he said with most actually being the opposite of his claims.
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It was submitted about 3 weeks ago and the initial one was denied (as most seem to be the first time around), waiting for them to resubmit with whatever needed fixed to be fixed (which I'm not sure why it was denied, should find out this week).
) and they said (if you lease) "we cannot install such a link BUT what your electrician does after we leave is up to you". 
