An Arizona Republic columnist searches for Phoenix's soul (Tucson: ghetto, town)

[Maroon197]

Originally Posted by cacto

We're never going to be like any of the other big cities and the moment we try to be West Coast or or more like the urban East we'll lose the real Phoenix.

What is the "real Phoenix" though? Sprawl, strip malls, block walls, and climate controlled spaces? Empty lots, artificial greenery, golf courses, and senior communities? What Phoenix has been over the past 4 decades isn't sustainable in the long run, and things are going to have to change at some point. I think the discussion about Phoenix's soul is extremely worthwhile, because the residents are going to have to determine and define just what it is about Phoenix that they truly want to preserve and enhance as it inevitably morphs and transforms over the coming years.

[yukon]

First off, I don't live in Phoenix. I live in Albuquerque and don't hate Phoenix. Other than the summer heat, many of us in ABQ like PHX very much. (Why else would we be packing those SW flights, eh?) We don't expect the two cities to be the same, why should they?

Having cleared that up, my take as a frequent, regular visitor who hits pretty much all of the metro when I'm in town (except Gilbert), I think Phoenix does have a soul. I think the writer of the article is too young to recognize it. She hasn't lived long enough or seen enough. She's basing the comparison on very narrow criteria.

Read the legend. Phoenix the city is much like the legend and has the soul of the bird it's named for.

Phoenix Story

One thing I like about Phoenix is it doesn't destroy old to build new. Yes, that causes sprawl, but it also retains history. Compare Phoenix to Dallas. I moved away from Dallas in 2001. Looking at my old neighborhoods, I don't recognize any of them as many have been bulldozed to build new and trendy places. You want a city with no soul? That would be Dallas. Dallas tries to reinvent itself every decade or so. Phoenix seems to respect older things while accommodating the new. I grew up in Phoenix, moved away in 1967. I always find time to go back to my old PHX neighborhood and guess what? It's still recognizable. Sure, a few things changed, some houses have been replaced, my school is now an apartment complex and huge city park, but the overall area is still bustling, viable and much like it was, only improved (44th & Indian School). Even the date palms still remain from the old school. I see older places in the metro being renovated and the charm of their original age captured and maintained the renovations. Phoenix recognizes old can be good. Dallas destroys it.

I think Phoenix should be proud of it's soul, it's diversity, and yes, even it's bad points.

/PSA

[Maroon197]

Yukon- I would actually argue the opposite. Phoenix decimated much of its historical urban fabric, as noted in this thread:

TRUPHX: Phoenix Then and Now

[stevek64]

Originally Posted by Maroon197

What is the "real Phoenix" though? Sprawl, strip malls, block walls, and climate controlled spaces? Empty lots, artificial greenery, golf courses, and senior communities? What Phoenix has been over the past 4 decades isn't sustainable in the long run, and things are going to have to change at some point.

Sounds like the vast majority of metros, especially the suburbs, throughout the USA, yes? For those who have traveled about our country realize that's what it's about as that's what people want. If it wasn't what people wanted, the strip malls would go out of business. And homes with block walls wouldn't sell. As for climate controlled spaces, that occurs in the vast majority of the country also. People say Phoenix wouldn't exist with such a large population without A/C. The same can be said for much of the mid-west ,northeast, and mid-Atlantic states that wouldn't exist with such large population without artificial heat. Heating homes is standard for often 6 months of the year in large populated areas of the northern parts of the mid-west and the Northeast/Mid-Atlantic states. If anything, the Phoenix metro needs less climate controlled spaces aside from A/C in summer than most parts of the country. We and many other people we know don't heat or cool our homes from Nov-Apr. For us, we go even further and don't use our A/C at all in most of October and May so that's 8 months for us with no heating/cooling. It's just not that hot for us to need it and we prefer to open the windows during those months.

As to what's sustainable and what will "have" to change, the market will figure it all out nicely.

As for "soul", that's an elusive/vague term really, isn't it? Some cities/areas that I've been told has "soul" didn't hit us right. Some felt downright dumpy. It's a subjective term that I think is used often for someone who's trying to say "This area has the things that I like, value, and where I would like to live". To each their own. It's all subjective in the end.

[yukon]

Originally Posted by Maroon197

Yukon- I would actually argue the opposite. Phoenix decimated much of its historical urban fabric, as noted in this thread:

TRUPHX: Phoenix Then and Now

I will be the first to admit that I know very little of downtown. We didn't go when I was a kid, for some reason all our bills were paid in downtown Scottsdale. Nor do I go downtown PHX now, none of my business sources are in downtown proper. I still think there is more respect for older in PHX than Dallas, though.

[cacto]

Originally Posted by Maroon197

What is the "real Phoenix" though? Sprawl, strip malls, block walls, and climate controlled spaces? Empty lots, artificial greenery, golf courses, and senior communities? What Phoenix has been over the past 4 decades isn't sustainable in the long run, and things are going to have to change at some point. I think the discussion about Phoenix's soul is extremely worthwhile, because the residents are going to have to determine and define just what it is about Phoenix that they truly want to preserve and enhance as it inevitably morphs and transforms over the coming years.

You say sprawl like its a bad thing.

[Zippyman]

Originally Posted by cacto

You say sprawl like its a bad thing.

Exactly! The only time in my entire life that I've ever had problems with neighbors (and crime) was in apartments and a house with no yard/ a tiny driveway/not nearly enough guest parking. The only way to eliminate "sprawl" is to eliminate single-family homes with real yards (and I'd argue we lead the nation in micro-yards already). We've had some threads here that are truly epic regarding HOA's, and the underlying issue is always packing too many people (and their kids/pets/stuff) into too small of a space. You'll never notice your neighbor's "yip yip" dog on a half-acre lot - if he's 4 feet from your bedroom window, that's a problem.

[BoiWonder13]

Originally Posted by cacto

They're always gonna hate us down in the Old Pueblo, in Albuquerque, and El Paso too. The rest of the Southwest is always gonna say we aren't "authentic" Southwest. In Tucson they say we're a mini-LA, in LA they say we're just a big Tucson.

Ignore that noise, PHX just needs to keep on being PHX. The burning bird pride keeps growing and more and more people are staying to contribute to local art and business instead of retreating to one of the coasts.

Whether its a first time visitor from back east or a Daily Star writer, people show up, drive around some freeways, go to downtown expecting it all to be there, and check us off as "soulless". Let em. We're never going to be like any of the other big cities and the moment we try to be West Coast or or more like the urban East we'll lose the real Phoenix.

Great Post !

Especially the reference to the "burning bird" pride. I love the urban art scene here as well.

[Champ le monstre du lac]

Originally Posted by cacto

They're always gonna hate us down in the Old Pueblo, in Albuquerque, and El Paso too. The rest of the Southwest is always gonna say we aren't "authentic" Southwest. In Tucson they say we're a mini-LA, in LA they say we're just a big Tucson.

Originally Posted by yukon

First off, I don't live in Phoenix. I live in Albuquerque and don't hate Phoenix. Other than the summer heat, many of us in ABQ like PHX very much. (Why else would we be packing those SW flights, eh?) We don't expect the two cities to be the same, why should they?

+1! Count me in as well as somebody in ABQ that likes Phoenix and the valley. Phoenix doesn't have a lot of charm, which is what makes places like older parts of Tucson, San Francisco, and New Orleans nice places to visit. But for living, Phoenix has good modern infrastructure, it's clean, and it has a lot more attractive landscaping than Albuquerque. Many parts of the Valley of the Sun look a lot more well kept than ABQ/Rio Grande Valley. And it goes without saying that Phoenix has a lot more to do. The Sonoran desert and its vegetation is quite beautiful as well. The biggest attraction of living in Phoenix to me are its amenities and being in the very center of Arizona with lots of nice weekend roadtrip options.

Yes cities like Tucson, El Paso, and ABQ have a more Old School Southwestern feel than the Valley. ABQ does have its charms around Old Town and the Route 66 relics around Nob Hill. But much like Tucson and El Paso, a huge swath of neighborhoods have aging unkept mid 20th century sprawl and too many homes with burglar bars on them. I'm sure Phoenix has these areas though I never went looking for them, but I like how well kept and attractive many parts of the Valley are, areas that the other three cities have in short supply.

[Champ le monstre du lac]

As to the soul of Phoenix and the development of infill at its core, I'm not sure why people who prefer single family dwellings in the outskirts in nice attractive suburban neighborhoods feel the need to criticize the money being spent to improve the city's core. It's not as if billions of dollars weren't spent to accommodate there infrastructural needs out in the suburbs. It doesn't have to be a black and white discussion either having only one or the other. What's wrong with choice?

For those who prefer more urban and walkable areas people should be able to have the choice of living in those environments as well if the want to and the market is demanding it. It doesn't have to threaten or negate the suburban lifestyle to those inclined to prefer it.

The light rail is in place, and there are several vacant lots along Central Ave that can be infilled with apartment dwellings, retail, and dining. The potential is there for more walkable districts and for those who prefer to be in such areas. Having Central Phoenix as a destination will make the metro area more appealing as a whole. And with the size and growth of ASU, that will feed a demand for it and it already has as light rail ridership surpassed expected numbers. It's no secret that many millennials tend to like these type of neighborhoods for living.

Yes, these neighborhoods come with undesirable urban elements like panhandling, homeless, drug addicts, crime, etc, but there are many people willing to live in the city and tolerate these elements taking the good with the bad so they take advantage of other benefits of living in the city. To those who posted here that said nobody wants to live in these areas then why is Phoenix already building units like this with more coming down the pike?

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4961...3WljzFF6bg!2e0
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4598...tvUWUZvPJw!2e0
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4503...4BRwmPsSBg!2e0
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4586...jQWrDNIyVA!2e0

Long story short, the Valley is going to continue to grow, and the Valley can continue to build modern suburban comfort (hence the new 303 freeway and the new development that will inevitably be built around it) and also improve the urban density of its core for those who want and prefer a more urban lifestyle. You can have both, nothing wrong with either choice.