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If the data doesn't show that funding is a part of the equation then explain why the best school districts in this state are better funded than the average AZ school district.
My guess is parents in those districts vote more of the legislation in to increase spending, regardless if it's necessary or not as like most people, they believe the mantra of more money spent on schools = better school performance, even in the face of data from the US Dept of Education. Also again, you have to be careful of which is 1st, the chicken or the egg type thinking.....did the money buy better results or did parents who believe/care about education think spending more money will get them a better education? The data speaks volumes to what the answer is. If you have better data than the US Dept of Education and want to refute their information with your observations, they'd probably love to hear from you.
Also again, you have to be careful of which is 1st, the chicken or the egg type thinking.....did the money buy better results or did parents who believe/care about education think spending more money will get them a better education? The data speaks volumes to what the answer is. If you have better data than the US Dept of Education and want to refute their information with your observations, they'd probably love to hear from you.
I'm just the messenger.
Spot on. I don't believe throwing more money into a bad school where students don't want to learn and parent don't care will improve the school at all.
If we just spent a median amount on our schools for a median return on our schools we wouldn't even be having this conversation with a better shot at attracting higher end jobs nobody wants the best as we will never be, but average? That would be nice. No reason to be the worst.
And let's not forget Arizona and especially the valley have some excellent, well regarded colleges. That's why I'm not buying the "one of the big reasons we didn't set up shop here was because of your public education system or diversity" excuses. As for our public school system, someone should have told them 3 out of the top 10 high schools in the nation are in AZ, 2 in the valley, and 2 out of the 3 are public schools. That's impressive.
And all the decent schools sprinkled about the valley.
Here is how it works. If you have a concentration of motivated families (i.e. Gilbert Classical Academy High School) you won't have to spend the big bucks on problem kids which sucks up the bulk of the dollars. Overhead like on site police officers, more counselors, etc all consume big $$'s. Of course special education students also cause a high level of spending. Things like alcohol fetal syndrome and other disabilities related to problem families drain the funds for others. Areas with high concentration of immigrants also suck up the resources and pull from the motivated families/students in that district. Putting it another way, the average dollars you see spent actually get to the average motivated family in Gilbert and Scottsdale. Not so much in Surprise (for example).
IMHO, being an average student in America isn't a good thing. I'd be extremely disappointed if my kids were academically "average". Hence, you can spend MUCH less $$'s in areas where you have a higher concentration of motivated families and get top notch averages in comparison to other areas that have a wider spectrum of students by dodging the lower class areas (that correlate to lower performance). After all, motivated families tend on making more $$'s.
This ^^ always explains the areas that are higher rated and spend less. It also explains why spending all you want in the inner city poverty areas won't help. Concentration of motivated areas don't have to spend nearly as much and they shed the families that don't have the same expectations. But let's say you are a motivated family and you attend a district that is "average" in the PHX area. It's not going to be pretty and no way in Hell would I send my kids to those schools. Hence, believe it or not on AVERAGE, PHX isn't attracting some businesses for this very reason.
We raised our kids in MN in a very average district. See Andover Senior High in ANDOVER, MN | Test Scores | US News . A full 25% of the student body partially meets the BASIC standards or below and that is above the average. Yet another group in the school kicks butt. What I cared deeply about is what my kids were able to accomplish. So while the non-motivated families were causing the dollars to be spent in inefficient ways, our kids got an incredible education. They took classes with only motivated kids, had smaller class sizes, had higher than average paid teachers that were motivated to perform, etc. The end result is they were able to achieve at their highest possible potential. At the risk of sounding like I am bragging, my DD is in dental school and my DS is finished up on his secondaries and interviewing at tier 1 medical schools. THERE IS NO FRICKEN WAY I'm would send my kids to an area like PHX that spends so little on K-12 unless I sent them to a private school. The PHX area spends a full 30% less than the national average.
No go look on the MPLS C-D board. People are constantly asking questions about MN K-12 schools. They are coming to MN and education is of key importance. See http://wallethub.com/edu/states-with...-schools/5335/ . Overall MN is #8 and AZ is #48. Frankly, for 90% of the Twin City metro area, it doesn't matter where you go because MN spends enough to get $$s to the programs and students that have motivated families. The net result is that "average" MN school cannot hold you back while 10% of the student body at our kids high school dropped out.
In MY world, I'd solve this problem by only funding the $$'s to the students that perform. If you don't care, then the tax payers shouldn't waste their $$'s. But that will be met by lawsuits and spending even less money on the kids (and now on the lawyers). Unable to personally tackle the funding problem, I'm not going to experiment with my kids future by sending them to HS's in this metro area.
I am extremely fiscally conservative. But I am willing to waste $$'s on 50% of the student body in order to make sure my kids have every opportunity possible to get the best education. I would not hesitate to vote yes for my local AZ referendums (even though my kids are done with K-12) because the motivated families are getting shorted. Hence, I'd be extremely concerned about sending my kids to most of the schools around the Valley. Motivated families don't mind spending $$'s on their kids if it helps. Needless to say, as a whole there are a lot of families (a.k.a. voters) that don't care. And it shows in the low per pupil spending.
Last edited by MN-Born-n-Raised; 08-17-2015 at 06:04 AM..
Here is how it works. If you have a concentration of motivated families (i.e. Gilbert Classical Academy High School) you won't have to spend the big bucks on problem kids which sucks up the bulk of the dollars. Overhead like on site police officers, more counselors, etc all consume big $$'s. Of course special education students also cause a high level of spending. Things like alcohol fetal syndrome and other disabilities related to problem families drain the funds for others. Areas with high concentration of immigrants also suck up the resources and pull from the motivated families/students in that district. Putting it another way, the average dollars you see spent actually get to the average motivated family in Gilbert and Scottsdale. Not so much in Surprise (for example).
IMHO, being an average student in America isn't a good thing. I'd be extremely disappointed if my kids were academically "average". Hence, you can spend MUCH less $$'s in areas where you have a higher concentration of motivated families and get top notch averages in comparison to other areas that have a wider spectrum of students by dodging the lower class areas (that correlate to lower performance). After all, motivated families tend on making more $$'s.
This ^^ always explains the areas that are higher rated and spend less. It also explains why spending all you want in the inner city poverty areas won't help. Concentration of motivated areas don't have to spend nearly as much and they shed the families that don't have the same expectations. But let's say you are a motivated family and you attend a district that is "average" in the PHX area. It's not going to be pretty and no way in Hell would I send my kids to those schools. Hence, believe it or not on AVERAGE, PHX isn't attracting some businesses for this very reason.
We raised our kids in MN in a very average district. See Andover Senior High in ANDOVER, MN | Test Scores | US News . A full 25% of the student body partially meets the BASIC standards or below and that is above the average. Yet another group in the school kicks butt. What I cared deeply about is what my kids were able to accomplish. So while the non-motivated families were causing the dollars to be spent in inefficient ways, our kids got an incredible education. They took classes with only motivated kids, had smaller class sizes, had higher than average paid teachers that were motivated to perform, etc. The end result is they were able to achieve at their highest possible potential. At the risk of sounding like I am bragging, my DD is in dental school and my DS is finished up on his secondaries and interviewing at tier 1 medical schools. THERE IS NO FRICKEN WAY I'm would send my kids to an area like PHX that spends so little on K-12 unless I sent them to a private school. The PHX area spends a full 30% less than the national average.
No go look on the MPLS C-D board. People are constantly asking questions about MN K-12 schools. They are coming to MN and education is of key importance. See 2015’s States with the Best and Worst School Systems | WalletHub® . Overall MN is #8 and AZ is #48. Frankly, for 90% of the Twin City metro area, it doesn't matter where you go because MN spends enough to get $$s to the programs and students that have motivated families. The net result is that "average" MN school cannot hold you back while 10% of the student body at our kids high school dropped out.
In MY world, I'd solve this problem by only funding the $$'s to the students that perform. If you don't care, then the tax payers shouldn't waste their $$'s. But that will be met by lawsuits and spending even less money on the kids (and now on the lawyers). Unable to personally tackle the funding problem, I'm not going to experiment with my kids future by sending them to HS's in this metro area.
I am extremely fiscally conservative. But I am willing to waste $$'s on 50% of the student body in order to make sure my kids have every opportunity possible to get the best education. I would not hesitate to vote yes for my local AZ referendums (even though my kids are done with K-12) because the motivated families are getting shorted. Hence, I'd be extremely concerned about sending my kids to most of the schools around the Valley. Motivated families don't mind spending $$'s on their kids if it helps. Needless to say, as a whole there are a lot of families (a.k.a. voters) that don't care. And it shows in the low per pupil spending.
Good to hear....lots of concerned parents in MN and that's why they perform so high. Given you are "extremely fiscally conservative", and the data I posted a few posts up showing the sobering chart that money has no impact on performance from US Dept of Education data, why would you be willing to waste spending money on something that does nothing to change student test scores? I know you're a ROI guy as I am and this chart fly's against what I think you stand for.
I am extremely fiscally conservative. But I am willing to waste $$'s on 50% of the student body in order to make sure my kids have every opportunity possible to get the best education. I would not hesitate to vote yes for my local AZ referendums (even though my kids are done with K-12) because the motivated families are getting shorted. Hence, I'd be extremely concerned about sending my kids to most of the schools around the Valley. Motivated families don't mind spending $$'s on their kids if it helps. Needless to say, as a whole there are a lot of families (a.k.a. voters) that don't care. And it shows in the low per pupil spending.
Being fiscally conservative, you should be willing to spend the extra money to send your kids to a private school, and vote against any referendums that seek to rob more money from you and throw it into the giant black hole known as public education. I'm not telling you how to vote or what to do with your money, but a true fiscal conservative would be opposed to increasing taxes.
Yes there are motivated families, and they usually are willing to pay for the costs of private education to ensure their kids are getting the best education possible. I always commend those parents. Unfortunately, too many others don't care, and they are often the ones who throw their kids into public schools and use them as a free babysitting service.
The low per pupil spending percentage is merely a small statistic. You really need to look at the big picture and take into account just how much public money is being poured into education ... it's an overwhelming amount, even in Arizona where 50% of the state's budget is allotted for education. Approximately 70% of our property taxes go to education. Even though our property tax rates are generally lower than other areas, 70% still amounts to a lot of money. For those of us who don't have kids, it's an unfair costly burden!
Either you spend the money on education, or you'll spend the money later on criminal justice, it's just that simple. (I.e., the Walmart effect) You think you're saving money upfront, but the cost of replacing cheaply made products costs more in the long run.
Unfortunately, many folks in AZ would choose the latter.
Either you spend the money on education, or you'll spend the money later on criminal justice, it's just that simple. (I.e., the Walmart effect) You think you're saving money upfront, but the cost of replacing cheaply made products costs more in the long run.
Unfortunately, many folks in AZ would choose the latter.
+1. A good public education system benefits the public. Now, and down the line.
I am always happy to engage in this type of discussion as a former public school teacher and administrator. Money definitely helps, but it's not a panacea. We have a major perception problem nationally when it comes to education. There is still a perception issue when it comes to the state in general because of past legislation, but people seem to be getting past that hence, the recent growth.
When I taught in the public schools here my frustration was primarily with the state Board of Education. I, along with other teachers, would attend some of the meetings, present our concerns and make suggestions, but to no avail to the board. Some of the decisions it passed down hurt schools and districts because the people making the decisions had never been on the front lines in a classroom. In part, some of the perceptions are true as far as the BOE and politics are concerned.
Either you spend the money on education, or you'll spend the money later on criminal justice, it's just that simple. (I.e., the Walmart effect) You think you're saving money upfront, but the cost of replacing cheaply made products costs more in the long run.
Unfortunately, many folks in AZ would choose the latter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandy6879
+1. A good public education system benefits the public. Now, and down the line.
Non-Sequitur.
I think you're confusing the role of schools vs the role of parents. Parents have(and should) have the biggest role in keeping their kids out of the "criminal justice" system. And teaching their kids the value of education. Schools shouldn't be mom's and dad's kiddies babysitter, teaching them values, etc. That's not the roles of schools or government as a whole. That's the job of parents.
And it certainly can't buy what you are looking for.....results!
Lots of you are ignoring the elephant in the room, as illustrated in the chart above. But if you want to believe in magic/the illusion of money making schools systems work better in the face of this US Department of Education data, you are of course welcome to your rose colored glasses. Now about that ocean front property I have for you that I know you're gonna looooooove in Iowa......
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Motivated families don't mind spending $$'s on their kids if it helps. Needless to say, as a whole there are a lot of families (a.k.a. voters) that don't care. And it shows in the low per pupil spending.
