Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
It really can't turn into that when the person who made that counterclaim (me) is not from California and has never lived there. All I did was point out that this "common knowledge" that California is losing jobs left and right is false. And whether you like it or not, the cost of living in increasing here and the jobs that pay enough to support that lifestyle just aren't here in great supply. Just last week I saw an ad that promoted "Affordable Urban Living". I'm keeping an eye out for apartments right now and looked. $1,300 for a studio. Does that sound affordable to you? As you said, supply and demand. Part of why New York and California are so expensive is for that reason: the demand to live there outweighs the supply of housing, jobs, natural resources, etc. What do you really want for the Phoenix area? The lack of competition among other states and cities? Inevitably increasing prices without the jobs to pay for them? Paying the consequences in the future of inaction today? You can also take your fixation off California and look at other cities that have those kinds of jobs, are much more prominent on the global scale AND have comparable costs of living to Phoenix, including Dallas and Atlanta. Neither are quite on par with LA or San Francisco, but they still have those kinds of jobs without the prices you see in some California cities.
Affordable is relative of course. The metro overall is about average in cost of living based on the data I've seen. I'd say much below average in property taxes. As for rent, it's climbing across the nation based on data I've seen so Phoenix is caught up in that too. As for jobs here in the metro, there must be a decent amount given the full time population we support and a great many people with $. No, they aren't all high pay of course but that's true in other cities too. Most jobs aren't high pay as most of the population is middle class and below. And we are above average in population of younger adults compared to the nation. We aren't all about "old" people who don't need jobs as many people falsely believe. Though this is older data, Maricopa county always ranked high with the number of millionaires:
Yes, Maricopa is a big county and would net/net have more millionaires than some other counties. And yes, some people move here already have some $ but I'm sure there are plenty of people with $ who made their $ right in the Phoenix metro in small business(there are a bunch of them here), working average jobs(read the millionaire next door), etc. For those educated in the right field, IT and health care, there are a good deal of jobs here in the valley with decent pay. We have many good friends who make a good living in the valley in health care, IT, management jobs, small business owners, etc.
Without even trying, here's a search on IT in Phoenix on one site and we have 1000+ hits:
What can leaders do? Easy answer: they're politicians. Would you go see a lawyer to fill a cavity? Would you go to a security guard to get French lessons? Would you take your sick pet to the post office to have it healed? No? But you'll keep voting for the same person who acts like a jack-of-all-trades. If I were to run for governor I would be upfront: I'm not an educator, I'm not a businessman, and most likely I don't know how to do the job you do. However, I'm not going to talk at you for once, and instead invite you to come tell me what the state needs to do. If businesses want lower taxes, fine. That would be the carrot at the end of the stick. Help me make this state attract better quality jobs, and you'll get your tax cut.
Also, the exodus you speak of is again, false. According to the Census Bureau, West Virginia is the only state to have lost population since 2010. The others and DC have grown. And incentives aren't the only thing to get companies to move here. They may help jump start the matter, but Phoenix needs to improve in a lot of areas to get things to develop, and I don't just mean education. But still, your point of competition is valid. Unfortunately for Phoenix, it has a lot of competition. That's why I feel this is urgent, because it seems like this city is in a really good place in its history to develop smarter.
I honestly don't think there's much that can be done other than throwing some incentives at business. That's the reality in my view. As for politicians, let me state I trust NONE of them and feel they are self serving and the needs of the people aren't even on the list other than when the lies fly around election time. Voting/electing a lump of dirt into office at this point wouldn't make a difference in my view. So let's put the political angle to rest.
As for the population exodus in many states, it is indeed true for many states. I'm talking long term trends, not the last year or 2 numbers that some politicians like to use which show many states as "gaining" population. That's like saying we have a 1 trillion deficit but this year we have a 500 billion "surplus". Ahh, no.
Longer term population trends show the bigger picture in my view.
Here's NY as an example for what I'm referring too:
"Since 1960, New York has lost 7.3 million residents to the rest of the country. This was partially offset by an influx of 4.8 million foreign immigrants, resulting in a net decline of 2.5 million residents."
Quote:
Originally Posted by dvxhd
You do recall how bad this city was hit during the recession, don't you? And a lot of that was because of over-inflated housing prices and people who couldn't afford them. I'll repeat that ridiculous studio price again: $1,300. And the part in red is just ludicrous (and still fixating on California ). Last time I went to New York, there were people to check me out at the store, serve me food, clean my hotel room, etc. Ditto London. And Paris. And Hong Kong, Sydney, Rio de Janeiro, Tokyo and hundreds of other cities in between. Do you truly, sincerely think that a larger number of high-paying jobs would wipe out all of those lower-end jobs? Now THAT is ridiculous. If somehow 20 new skyscrapers were to pop up almost overnight and major banks, financial services, global law firms, etc. were to scramble for that office space and get positions filled ASAP, many people would be totally unqualified for those jobs. You're essentially saying that long-term bag boy at the grocery store is now making a six-figure salary as Partner in Tax Law, or that the school janitor is now trading stocks on the Nikkei. Whether this growth is fast or slow, Phoenix still needs to improve and diversify its economy, or it won't have much of a future.
I'm "fixating" on CA because they have had decent success at attracting business over the years though as I've stated, I think a chunk of this has to do with their past when their business climate was more favorable, cost of living lower, etc. And CA's public schools, based on test scores/other data I've seen, aren't better than the valley in my view so I used CA as an example to those who cry "public education!" is the reason we aren't attracting jobs at breakneck speed. As for "fixating", let me address your $1,300 studio price in the valley that you have mentioned many times now. There are many people in the valley who have found lots of places in the valley that are cheaper and much bigger places to rent than a $1,300 for a studio and in decent areas. For a prime area/near a central area, sure, you're going to pay more of course and that's true in any city. Or a high end/marketed as such place. However, many others can and do rent a nice house in a decent area for $1100-1300. That's common in some of the suburbs around the valley. Here are some in Goodyear:
And I never suggested people not making much money can't live around expensive cities. The point that I made clear in my previous post was that their quality of living isn't going to be that high given their salary/cost of living. Many have to live in tiny rental units. And often not the best of areas. That's all. And some choose to live in far flung areas where it's cheaper but that price comes with a long commute. And as for higher paying jobs wiping out lower paying jobs, that is again far from what I stated in my previous post and you're taking me way out of context.
Stevek64: It will get that way if we can attract a bunch of high paying jobs and lower paying support jobs for the law of supply and demand for housing and other services will go up.
My statement above was to imply more lower end support jobs would arrive in the valley for those higher paying jobs and that demand(more people at the high/low end of the salary spectrum) would push up home prices and yes, rent. That's all. Specifically, which I didn't previously mention, such support jobs as cleaning staff, maintenance, etc. that are needed when new buildings companies move in like we have with those new State Farm buildings going up in Tempe to support the higher paying admin jobs.
The rest of your post above was a misunderstanding of what I stated so I won't comment further.
But yes, in the end, I'm all for the valley improving and diversifying its economy and I think it's doing just that. Not as fast as many want but that's reality. I wanted some elements of my life to go on speed mode or slow down for that matter but many elements of reality are frankly uncontrollable. In reality, politicians or anyone else in imho, in the valley or any city, don't have as much control in attracting these jobs as many people feel. My view is offering incentives($), though of course not always successful, is one of the few concrete ways that has shown some sucess. The valley has many decent assets that can be promoted but again we are in a very competitive arena. I have no magic answers. Nor does anyone else if they are honest as if we did, every city in this nation would be rolling in jobs overnight. And frankly I think luck/timing plays a bigger role in all of this than many people realize and perhaps care to admit.
Location: The edge of the world and all of Western civilization
984 posts, read 1,192,249 times
Reputation: 1691
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64
Affordable is relative of course. The metro overall is about average in cost of living based on the data I've seen. I'd say much below average in property taxes. As for rent, it's climbing across the nation based on data I've seen so Phoenix is caught up in that too. As for jobs here in the metro, there must be a decent amount given the full time population we support and a great many people with $. No, they aren't all high pay of course but that's true in other cities too. Most jobs aren't high pay as most of the population is middle class and below. And we are above average in population of younger adults compared to the nation. We aren't all about "old" people who don't need jobs as many people falsely believe. Though this is older data, Maricopa county always ranked high with the number of millionaires:
Yes, Maricopa is a big county and would net/net have more millionaires than some other counties. And yes, some people move here already have some $ but I'm sure there are plenty of people with $ who made their $ right in the Phoenix metro in small business(there are a bunch of them here), working average jobs(read the millionaire next door), etc. For those educated in the right field, IT and health care, there are a good deal of jobs here in the valley with decent pay. We have many good friends who make a good living in the valley in health care, IT, management jobs, small business owners, etc.
Without even trying, here's a search on IT in Phoenix on one site and we have 1000+ hits:
It is caught up in it... which is precisely the issue here. And saying Phoenix doesn't need those jobs is just wrong. 3 of the 5 top employers are Wal-Mart, Wells Fargo and Fry's. McDonald's, Basha's and Walgreen's are also high on the list. While Wells Fargo may seem to be high-paying, the bulk of those people work in branches, and it appears tellers make less than $12/hour. That's hardly livable. On top of that, the lack of high paying jobs also limits people in opportunities and surprisingly can keep salaries/wages lower. For example, what I do for work. I had to wait out the recession in Oklahoma and what I do is in very short supply there, though there are slightly more here (proportionate to the population difference between the two). In both places, companies don't have to compete with each other to attract and retain workers. I looked at my company's Manhattan office, and just transferring there would mean a 250% increase in pay. Cost of living may be higher there, but it's not so much higher that I'd need that kind of a pay raise to live the same lifestyle I have now. Companies pay it, because if they invest money in workers to train them and a competitor pays employees more, they will be inclined to quit and go to the competitor and then they would need to keep throwing money into training. Likewise, should something happen and I find myself out of work, finding a similar position would be that much harder in Phoenix.
So your conclusion is that Phoenix' job market is perfect, but only as long as you are educated and trained in health or IT?
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64
I honestly don't think there's much that can be done other than throwing some incentives at business. That's the reality in my view. As for politicians, let me state I trust NONE of them and feel they are self serving and the needs of the people aren't even on the list other than when the lies fly around election time. Voting/electing a lump of dirt into office at this point wouldn't make a difference in my view. So let's put the political angle to rest.
As for the population exodus in many states, it is indeed true for many states. I'm talking long term trends, not the last year or 2 numbers that some politicians like to use which show many states as "gaining" population. That's like saying we have a 1 trillion deficit but this year we have a 500 billion "surplus". Ahh, no.
Longer term population trends show the bigger picture in my view.
Here's NY as an example for what I'm referring too:
"Since 1960, New York has lost 7.3 million residents to the rest of the country. This was partially offset by an influx of 4.8 million foreign immigrants, resulting in a net decline of 2.5 million residents."
There's a lot that could be done. Phoenix wants to nurture biosciences, which is great. However, state law bans stem cell research, which would severely hinder some companies. They can provide all the incentives they want, but unless that law is repealed, it's going to hinder their progress and they'll set up shop in a state that allows stem cell research. While the pay wouldn't be high, opening up a new bar also faces hurdles, as the state has a quota on active liquor licenses. Again, that's another thing the state could get rid of. Beyond that, there's the perception of Phoenix. Lack of public transit means fewer ways to get to work. Lack of an educated workforce means that company could actually lose money when people can't do the jobs. What people perceive to be bad schools means it would be harder to get families to transfer here. On top of that, you'd be surprised about how much data exists on people, right down to zip codes. Companies use that for marketing purposes, but also on where to set up. That's why you don't see a Food City in North Scottsdale, and it's also why offices are spread throughout town while Central Phoenix lags.
Back to politics, you really do have to consider those because action/inaction among city and state leaders determines the future. It's my understanding that Detroit really needs new businesses, but city leaders keep getting in the way. I've also seen a huge list of proposed buildings for Phoenix all last decade, and the city pretty much got in the way and developers gave up. Oh well, as long as you have the city the way you want it.
Also, New York's population in 1960 was 16,782,304, and in 2010 19,746,227 with a population decline between 1970 and 1980, but an overall net growth of about 3 million people. The state is growing. It might not be as fast as some others, but the long-term trend is positive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64
I'm "fixating" on CA because they have had decent success at attracting business over the years though as I've stated, I think a chunk of this has to do with their past when their business climate was more favorable, cost of living lower, etc. And CA's public schools, based on test scores/other data I've seen, aren't better than the valley in my view so I used CA as an example to those who cry "public education!" is the reason we aren't attracting jobs at breakneck speed. As for "fixating", let me address your $1,300 studio price in the valley that you have mentioned many times now. There are many people in the valley who have found lots of places in the valley that are cheaper and much bigger places to rent than a $1,300 for a studio and in decent areas. For a prime area/near a central area, sure, you're going to pay more of course and that's true in any city. Or a high end/marketed as such place. However, many others can and do rent a nice house in a decent area for $1100-1300. That's common in some of the suburbs around the valley. Here are some in Goodyear:
And I never suggested people not making much money can't live around expensive cities. The point that I made clear in my previous post was that their quality of living isn't going to be that high given their salary/cost of living. Many have to live in tiny rental units. And often not the best of areas. That's all. And some choose to live in far flung areas where it's cheaper but that price comes with a long commute. And as for higher paying jobs wiping out lower paying jobs, that is again far from what I stated in my previous post and you're taking me way out of context.
Stevek64: It will get that way if we can attract a bunch of high paying jobs and lower paying support jobs for the law of supply and demand for housing and other services will go up.
My statement above was to imply more lower end support jobs would arrive in the valley for those higher paying jobs and that demand(more people at the high/low end of the salary spectrum) would push up home prices and yes, rent. That's all. Specifically, which I didn't previously mention, such support jobs as cleaning staff, maintenance, etc. that are needed when new buildings companies move in like we have with those new State Farm buildings going up in Tempe to support the higher paying admin jobs.
The rest of your post above was a misunderstanding of what I stated so I won't comment further.
But yes, in the end, I'm all for the valley improving and diversifying its economy and I think it's doing just that. Not as fast as many want but that's reality. I wanted some elements of my life to go on speed mode or slow down for that matter but many elements of reality are frankly uncontrollable. In reality, politicians or anyone else in imho, in the valley or any city, don't have as much control in attracting these jobs as many people feel. My view is offering incentives($), though of course not always successful, is one of the few concrete ways that has shown some sucess. The valley has many decent assets that can be promoted but again we are in a very competitive arena. I have no magic answers. Nor does anyone else if they are honest as if we did, every city in this nation would be rolling in jobs overnight. And frankly I think luck/timing plays a bigger role in all of this than many people realize and perhaps care to admit.
Mentioning that studio twice isn't many times. If it is to you, you're easily impressed. That article I posted also mentioned companies expanding in California. You must have missed that part. And for the cheaper housing, you're negating yourself. You questioned if Phoenix should be one of those cities where people have to live far away for cheap housing... yet you're defending that same model now. I for one don't particularly want to live in Gilbert, even if it meant cheaper housing. To me, it's far too inconvenient, not only for work, but also entertainment.
Your point isn't very clear when you're insinuating that the lower cost of living here relative to other cities means people have more disposable income in Maricopa County, which they don't. There are a lot of people here with a low quality of life and they just don't have access to better paying jobs because they aren't here in abundance. And I believe I highlighted what you said in the last post about wiping out service level jobs, but you're denying it now. If that wasn't your intention, you didn't state it very well.
These politicians can do things to attract better jobs by doing whatever possible to make the city more inviting whether through incentives or more inviting laws, but they don't. All I see them do is bank on a corporation closing down in California and opening here, which just won't happen. They also want to rely on outdated models rather than focusing on what works now. They may as well look to LaGuardia to see what he did for New York a century ago, even though that was a much different world. Or they can look to Dallas and see how it exploded in the 70s, even though that was a much different world. I just don't see them concentrating on the present and what works now. This whole Texas model thing people love to bring up is also outdated, because they've received some benefits for things they did in the past. Whatever they did right then probably isn't the best course of action today.
This appears to have turned into a contest to see who can type the most. I keep coming back here in hopes that somebody would have something interesting to say about Roosevelt Row.
This appears to have turned into a contest to see who can type the most. I keep coming back here in hopes that somebody would have something interesting to say about Roosevelt Row.
So uh, this Roosevelt/Garfield neighborhood seems to be doing well guys...
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
As you said, supply and demand. Part of why New York and California are so expensive is for that reason: the demand to live there outweighs the supply of housing, jobs, natural resources, etc. What do you really want for the Phoenix area? The lack of competition among other states and cities? Inevitably increasing prices without the jobs to pay for them? Paying the consequences in the future of inaction today? You can also take your fixation off California and look at other cities that have those kinds of jobs, are much more prominent on the global scale AND have comparable costs of living to Phoenix, including Dallas and Atlanta. Neither are quite on par with LA or San Francisco, but they still have those kinds of jobs without the prices you see in some California cities.
), etc. For those educated in the right field, IT and health care, there are a good deal of jobs here in the valley with decent pay. We have many good friends who make a good living in the valley in health care, IT, management jobs, small business owners, etc. 
Whether this growth is fast or slow, Phoenix still needs to improve and diversify its economy, or it won't have much of a future.
