Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
It's good to know that corner is finally being developed ... however, I'm a little disappointed that it will be lowrise apartments. A few years ago, there was a highrise condo project proposed for that intersection, which if I remember correctly was finalized and approved before it fell flat. In any case, a new development on that corner will definitely be better than an ugly vacant lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by locolife
That really just scratches the surface with whats happening in and around downtown. Here's a quick project rundown from the skycrapercity website to give you an idea of just how much energy is still going into DT Phoenix.
1. The Marriott at 19 floors (under construction)
2. Central station at 35 floors (large project, slow process)
3. Circles Records building 19/20 floors (new proposal)
4. 2nd/3rd street and Roosevelt 19 floors (iffy)
5. Micro housing tower 21 floors (new proposal)
6. Portland on the Park - Habitat Metro (2nd Ave. & Portland) (under construction)
7. Found:Re - Habitat Metro (Central & Portland) (under construction)
8. Hilton Garden Inn Phoenix Downtown - CSM Corp. (Central & Monroe) (under construction)
9. ASU Arizona Center for Law and Society (1st St. & Taylor) (under construction)
10. Biosciences Partnership Building (7th St. & Taylor) (under construction)
11. Proxy 333 - Tilton Development (4th St. & McKinley) (under construction)
12. en Hance - Sencorp Development (2nd St. & Moreland) (under construction)
13. Linear Apartments - Baron Properties (3rd St. & Roosevelt) (under construction)
14. Illuminate Apartments - Baron Properties (3rd St. & Roosevelt) (under construction)
15. Union at Roosevelt - MetroWest (Central & Roosevelt) (under construction)
The momentum is building at a level we've never seen in Phoenix before, even in/around 2006 there was a lot of talk, and a few large projects actually got built (44 Monroe, Ballpark Lofts, Cityscape, Freeport McMoran) but most of the proposals fell through, even CityScape is a scaled down version of what it was intended to be.
Most of these projects that are actually materializing are low or midrise developments at best. This is fine to a certain point, but downtown should be focused more on building upward, and I don't mean just 10, 15, or 20 story buildings. For as large as Phoenix is, we have a very mediocre skyline ... and the vertical horizon will continue to be rather low key because most skyscraper proposals have been scrapped due to financial situations, NIMBY protests, poor planning, or whatever. I'm highly skeptical of the Central Station development. It would be exactly what downtown needs (35 stories), but odds are that it will not come to fruition.
This post is a boiler plate relic of the Phoenix of yore.
Besides this article is a look at progress, not saying we're done it's saying look where we've come. This city is growing up.
Agreed, there is always going to negative Nancies who will compare us to New York or SF and claim we have nothing. That type of argument is pretty lazy. No one is claiming that. We are simply acknowledging the progress we've made in such a short time span.
On another note, the Coyotes are likely going to play in downtown as well after their lease ends with Glendale. To have more professional sporting venues in downtown will further bring people to downtown and create more venues to accomodate them.
It's good to know that corner is finally being developed ... however, I'm a little disappointed that it will be lowrise apartments. A few years ago, there was a highrise condo project proposed for that intersection, which if I remember correctly was finalized and approved before it fell flat. In any case, a new development on that corner will definitely be better than an ugly vacant lot.
Most of these projects that are actually materializing are low or midrise developments at best. This is fine to a certain point, but downtown should be focused more on building upward, and I don't mean just 10, 15, or 20 story buildings. For as large as Phoenix is, we have a very mediocre skyline ... and the vertical horizon will continue to be rather low key because most skyscraper proposals have been scrapped due to financial situations, NIMBY protests, poor planning, or whatever. I'm highly skeptical of the Central Station development. It would be exactly what downtown needs (35 stories), but odds are that it will not come to fruition.
AND..... What big city do you know of that doesn't have large clusters of "midrise developments at best" that house most of the urban population? I spent 5 years living in Boston for work, there were a handful of residential highrises that very well paid people could afford, but most of us were in anywhere from 3-10 story buildings.
I hear what your'e saying about the skyline, but that's not my main point of contention about Phoenix. Downtown needs people, and that's exactly what they're getting. There may or may not be a glamorous skyline in Phoenix's future, the fact that downtown is so close to the airport will always limit height (something Boston also deals with). But what I quickly realized after studying the East coast for a bit, is that some of the great/most dense neighborhoods in this country don't have many highrises. Checkout Somerville, Mass if you want another example of energetic/density without many tall buildings.
AND..... What big city do you know of that doesn't have large clusters of "midrise developments at best" that house most of the urban population? I spent 5 years living in Boston for work, there were a handful of residential highrises that very well paid people could afford, but most of us were in anywhere from 3-10 story buildings.
I hear what your'e saying about the skyline, but that's not my main point of contention about Phoenix. Downtown needs people, and that's exactly what they're getting. There may or may not be a glamorous skyline in Phoenix's future, the fact that downtown is so close to the airport will always limit height (something Boston also deals with). But what I quickly realized after studying the East coast for a bit, is that some of the great/most dense neighborhoods in this country don't have many highrises. Checkout Somerville, Mass if you want another example of energetic/density without many tall buildings.
Phoenix's core needs large clusters of both midrises and highrises. In order for this to actually happen, developers have to be entirely legitimate and well funded with their proposals ... unlike what happened during the boom/bust period of the last decade when a large amount of projects were planned, but fell through for one reason or the other, and then old dilapidated structures & vacant lots were all that remained.
Downtown being close to Sky Harbor is a tired out excuse. If Boston has the same issue, it doesn't show because they have quite an impressive skyline. San Diego's airport is also close to downtown, but their skyline looks impressive as well (even with the height restrictions). Las Vegas has towering hotels along the Strip which are awfully close to McCarran ... that didn't seem to be an issue there either. I agree that you can have density without a lot of height, but downtown Phoenix really needs to grow up vertically and be a true world class city, instead of just adding a few 4 to 10 story apartments here & there.
Phoenix's core needs large clusters of both midrises and highrises. In order for this to actually happen, developers have to be entirely legitimate and well funded with their proposals ... unlike what happened during the boom/bust period of the last decade when a large amount of projects were planned, but fell through for one reason or the other, and then old dilapidated structures & vacant lots were all that remained.
Downtown being close to Sky Harbor is a tired out excuse. If Boston has the same issue, it doesn't show because they have quite an impressive skyline. San Diego's airport is also close to downtown, but their skyline looks impressive as well (even with the height restrictions). Las Vegas has towering hotels along the Strip which are awfully close to McCarran ... that didn't seem to be an issue there either. I agree that you can have density without a lot of height, but downtown Phoenix really needs to grow up vertically and be a true world class city, instead of just adding a few 4 to 10 story apartments here & there.
I'm all for it, but the demand just isn't there for one reason or another. My point about Sky Harbor is that there will never be 1000' buildings in the DT Phoenix area, but there is plenty of opportunity for a lot of 400-500' buildings, if the demand ever exists for it. Right now they're struggling just to fill up the commercial space we have in the CBD. But I think what you're seeing is the classic chicken and egg story, they tried to build a bunch of high-rises around 2006 and prior, you can see all the canceled projects on Emporis. That didn't work, so this time around developers are going in slower, with more conservative projects, and with the success of those I think we will see the demand for larger projects eventually return.
When you look at the cities you listed, there are specific reasons for dense development in those cores, in Phoenix we just don't have that yet. First, make it a place where jobs want to be (today it's not even the valley's top job center, but it's improving). You accomplish that by making it a desirable place to live (slowly happening). Then people start moving in, grocery stores/department stores will show interest in the new found demographic shift, and momentum starts. But you can't go big first, the foundation has to be there then you can grow it.
I'm all for it, but the demand just isn't there for one reason or another. My point about Sky Harbor is that there will never be 1000' buildings in the DT Phoenix area, but there is plenty of opportunity for a lot of 400-500' buildings, if the demand ever exists for it. Right now they're struggling just to fill up the commercial space we have in the CBD. But I think what you're seeing is the classic chicken and egg story, they tried to build a bunch of high-rises around 2006 and prior, you can see all the canceled projects on Emporis. That didn't work, so this time around developers are going in slower, with more conservative projects, and with the success of those I think we will see the demand for larger projects eventually return.
When you look at the cities you listed, there are specific reasons for dense development in those cores, in Phoenix we just don't have that yet. First, make it a place where jobs want to be (today it's not even the valley's top job center, but it's improving). You accomplish that by making it a desirable place to live (slowly happening). Then people start moving in, grocery stores/department stores will show interest in the new found demographic shift, and momentum starts. But you can't go big first, the foundation has to be there then you can grow it.
Another way to look at it is just the nature of the city. We have 3 distinct urban nodes that compliment each other to cover what the other doesn't. Which is great if you're looking for a night on the town, but to live, when Tempe has some of the elements, Phoenix has some of them and then Scotssdale has the others, none are cohesive enough to live in comfortably.
Another way to look at it is just the nature of the city. We have 3 distinct urban nodes that compliment each other to cover what the other doesn't. Which is great if you're looking for a night on the town, but to live, when Tempe has some of the elements, Phoenix has some of them and then Scotssdale has the others, none are cohesive enough to live in comfortably.
Yeah, that's true, coupled with the fact that we just don't push for much density here, or haven't in the past, it's always been a grow out, not up mentality. Even when you add up all 3 nodes you're still not talking density on par with other regions of our size, but were new, times are changing and hopefully for once we can build a Phoenix economy based on something other than building new houses.
If I had to bet on one of the 3 to pull away as the most urbanized area, my money (literally since I live here) is still on Tempe. It's the only landlocked city in the valley and therefore they have no choice but to build up or face the prospect of no growth. The city is well aware of this and instead of putting energy and resources into new sprawl growth 100% of their time and energy is on renewing rundown areas (Apache Blvd comes to mind) and increasing density in North Tempe.
If I had to bet on one of the 3 to pull away as the most urbanized area, my money (literally since I live here) is still on Tempe. It's the only landlocked city in the valley and therefore they have no choice but to build up or face the prospect of no growth. The city is well aware of this and instead of putting energy and resources into new sprawl growth 100% of their time and energy is on renewing rundown areas (Apache Blvd comes to mind) and increasing density in North Tempe.
This is a great point. Tempe really does seem to be ahead of the curve here. I think it is somewhat out of necessity as the university creates a high-density pocket right in it's downtown area. So in a way, they've had a bit of a head start. But Tempe began to embrace the urban growth a few years before people really started to get on the downtown Phoenix bandwagon and there doesn't seem to be much, if any, resistance to it. Plus, with so many of the "residents" of the downtown area of Tempe being college students, many don't have cars. Thus, you have a legitimate need for much of the core population to have a walkable area and several public transit options...something that isn't quite as prevalent of a need anywhere else in the valley.
When you look at the cities you listed, there are specific reasons for dense development in those cores, in Phoenix we just don't have that yet. First, make it a place where jobs want to be (today it's not even the valley's top job center, but it's improving). You accomplish that by making it a desirable place to live (slowly happening). Then people start moving in, grocery stores/department stores will show interest in the new found demographic shift, and momentum starts. But you can't go big first, the foundation has to be there then you can grow it.
The foundation for downtown has been in existence for well over 100 years. There was actually a time prior to about the 1960s when downtown Phoenix was a very bustling area complete with all the major department stores at the time. What happened between approximately the 1960s & 1990s was all the major retail went to the suburbs, and the central core became a place where people went to work in the office towers, but it was left pretty much for dead after 5 PM every day.
Many large cities went in that direction during the latter half of the 20th Century (especially the ones in the western U.S. including Dallas, San Diego, Denver, etc.): push everything off to the suburbs because people wanted their cookie cutter slabs of stucco. But look at all the progress those cities have made in their downtowns during the last couple of decades. Dallas, Denver, and San Diego now have downtowns which are points of pride. Phoenix has made some positive strides, and there is significant improvement compared to 20 years ago, but it still lags behind those cities.
I believe that in order to make downtown more of a job centric area, corporate tax breaks could be provided to reputable businesses in order to lure them in ... and by reputable businesses, I mean the ones which offer high paying competitive jobs. Even as conservative as Arizona tends to be, we still don't have a very low business tax rate which is discouraging to business owners, and that's one reason why a lot of large corporations are hesitant to establish their HQs here.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
