How many years until downtown Phoenix becomes a destination spot for people in the valley? (Scottsdale: real estate market, hotels)

[Java Jolt]

Originally Posted by observer53

A mall? Seriously? Where? Malls in the old sense aren't getting built anywhere. Large department stores are pretty much in the same category, except for big boxes like Target and Wal-Mart, and they are not going to find a spot in the true downtown.
It has a pharmacy, needs a grocery store. More than one of each? Not necessarily, as there are others within a very short drive of downtown. It has a public market. The presence of ASU Downtown has improved lighting, sidewalks, etc. There is one small park and a large one just to the north (Hance). Safety is a lot less of a concern, as are "blighted areas" at least as far as north of the tracks is concerned, than even ten years ago. I don't know where the closest day care center is. There are not that many families in true downtown, so that may be why there is not one there yet. Downtown may never be a location where families with small kids live. It doesn't have to be.

I'm guessing he means an outdoor-pedestrian mall, something like downtown Denver has.
16th Street Mall - Pedestrian Mall - Denver, CO

[Hschlick84]

Originally Posted by Java Jolt

I'm guessing he means an outdoor-pedestrian mall, something like downtown Denver has.
16th Street Mall - Pedestrian Mall - Denver, CO

Does Phoenix have a Denver version of 16th St Mall?

[Java Jolt]

Originally Posted by BIG CATS

I havent been to LA in nearly 20 years, but Ive seen the news reports on their homeless problem. Yikes!

Im from the Chicago suburbs, and spent a lot of time in Chicago. Despite being twice as large as PHX, I didnt see the problem downtown like I do here in PHX. Mayor Daley was pretty tough on them, I think he kept them out of the spotlight, so to speak. And where I was out in the suburbs, I maybe saw a couple homeless people every year at best. Here in the Valley, theyre seemingly on every major street corner, even in ritzy PV. Its not uncommon to see them occupying each corner and island at the Shea/Tatum intersection. Im sure the climate here has something to do with it, but I see a bigger homeless problem here than Chicago. And here theyre also MUCH more rude. I never had an unpleasant encounter back in Chicago. They could be pests, following me for a block or two begging for my shoes, but here Ive been screamed at. One time I was at a stoplight and he was screaming at me for ignoring him. He even came off the median to approach me. Luckily the turn arrow quickly lit and I scooted my arse outta there before he became physical, which looked like was about to happen.

Panhandlers are a problem in Tempe too and most of them are scam artists, not the true down-and-out homeless people.

The best thing to do is just ignore them.

[Java Jolt]

Originally Posted by Hschlick84

Does Phoenix have a Denver version of 16th St Mall?

Arizona Center and maybe Cityscape but not a true pedestrian-oriented mall devoted to an entire city block.

[i'm not a cookie]

Originally Posted by locolife

Guess that kills the old "it's way too hot for an urban life here" argument.

oh I agree and it's such BS. I lived in DC for a long period of my life and the summers in DC are no joke. I'm not even kidding they are almost as bad as Phoenix, worse for me because of the humidity. I have spent many days in New Orleans and their summer is hell yet both cities have urban life. For anyone who thinks that Phoenix is too hot for urban life, they are seriously mistaken

[Leaving Arizona]

Originally Posted by observer53

The past heyday of downtown was earlier than the 60's and 70's. It was already getting scary by the 70's, as the retail had already started moving out. Those condo towers were quite a bit north of downtown. And many movers and shakers were not living there, but in Encanto, Biltmore, Phoenix Country Club, etc. They still do.

Yes, the condos - such as the one Gov. Williams lived in - are a wee bit north of d/t, but not excessively so. The point was that politicos and movers/shakers preferred then to remain in the vicinity. And, yes, it was getting rather scuzzy in the 70s - what wasn't? My own hometown's downtown (Tempe) was rather ratty, too.

Otherwise, fair enough; I'm not old enough to know about the 1950s, even though I'm aware that the old department stores were located down there back then. I do know that when I was a kid (late 70s/mid 80s) that many of the bigshots still lived in north-central Phoenix, PCC, Encanto, etc., and remember going with my politically active parents to meetings/events in some of those homes. By the time I hit high school in 1986, downtown and the surrounds were pretty much abandoned for the suburbs, especially Scottsdale. An acquaintance I met in the late 90s lived in the same condo building Gov. Williams lived in, and I was sad to see how much it was run down and not updated at all.

[locolife]

Originally Posted by Leaving Arizona

Yes, the condos - such as the one Gov. Williams lived in - are a wee bit north of d/t, but not excessively so. The point was that politicos and movers/shakers preferred then to remain in the vicinity. And, yes, it was getting rather scuzzy in the 70s - what wasn't? My own hometown's downtown (Tempe) was rather ratty, too.

Otherwise, fair enough; I'm not old enough to know about the 1950s, even though I'm aware that the old department stores were located down there back then. I do know that when I was a kid (late 70s/mid 80s) that many of the bigshots still lived in north-central Phoenix, PCC, Encanto, etc., and remember going with my politically active parents to meetings/events in some of those homes. By the time I hit high school in 1986, downtown and the surrounds were pretty much abandoned for the suburbs, especially Scottsdale. An acquaintance I met in the late 90s lived in the same condo building Gov. Williams lived in, and I was sad to see how much it was run down and not updated at all.

Why is your history so limited to what you remember? Read some books, use the old google search a little bit, nothing you're talking about is unique to Phoenix or Tempe, it happened all over the country in just about every city and town. I wasn't born until the 1980's but since I'm interested in downtown development I can tell you a lot about the history before what I remember.

Anyways, yeah we all pretty much know about the whole white flight issues that happened back then, but you're crazy to say downtown's best days are behind it. My guess is what you remember is probably bigger than it really was (because that's just how memories work) and what's happening now you're probably dismissing because it's not your generation, it's not the heyday, things could never be better than they were way back when... but you can't argue with the statistics, which say downtown is on it's way to the largest urban population it's ever had, even more than it's hey day. Yes, the richest folks aren't jumping all over each other to move to the downtown area, but the momentum is awesome and who knows, some day it could be a landing spot again.

[locolife]

Originally Posted by i'm not a cookie

oh I agree and it's such BS. I lived in DC for a long period of my life and the summers in DC are no joke. I'm not even kidding they are almost as bad as Phoenix, worse for me because of the humidity. I have spent many days in New Orleans and their summer is hell yet both cities have urban life. For anyone who thinks that Phoenix is too hot for urban life, they are seriously mistaken

Exactly, I spent about 4-5 years on the east coast as well, in the Boston area. And I can tell you there was nothing fun about a heat wave out there either. Now put that on top of winters where it's absolutely painful to walk outside for even 10 seconds and you've got a mixture that makes me very happy to deal with our heat here.

I also visited Dubai, now I know we all think Phoenix is hot (which it is by US standards) but Middle East's mixture of heat and humidity was something I did not even think was possible.

Then there's the US's other massive desert city, Las Vegas, which is is literally full of pedestrians all summer long... It really is a silly argument.

[BIG CATS]

Originally Posted by Java Jolt

Panhandlers are a problem in Tempe too and most of them are scam artists, not the true down-and-out homeless people.

The best thing to do is just ignore them.

This guy was grungier than Tom Hanks in Cast Away, and was wearing clothes that looked like they hadnt been washed since Nam. And I did ignore him, and it was my ignoring him that made him beligerent.

[unwillingphoenician]

Originally Posted by locolife

Why is your history so limited to what you remember? Read some books, use the old google search a little bit, nothing you're talking about is unique to Phoenix or Tempe, it happened all over the country in just about every city and town. I wasn't born until the 1980's but since I'm interested in downtown development I can tell you a lot about the history before what I remember.

Anyways, yeah we all pretty much know about the whole white flight issues that happened back then, but you're crazy to say downtown's best days are behind it. My guess is what you remember is probably bigger than it really was (because that's just how memories work) and what's happening now you're probably dismissing because it's not your generation, it's not the heyday, things could never be better than they were way back when... but you can't argue with the statistics, which say downtown is on it's way to the largest urban population it's ever had, even more than it's hey day. Yes, the richest folks aren't jumping all over each other to move to the downtown area, but the momentum is awesome and who knows, some day it could be a landing spot again.

locolife

You're awesome. Keep at it.

I don't know what born in the 80s makes you--a millenial? I'm a little older than that, born in the early 1960s. I think I am one of the last years that could be considered a baby boomer. Back then, white flight was not only to suburbs, but also a lot of back to nature, back to the land kind of thing, where people moved out of cities to very small towns, or ranches, communes, whatever. I was born in a city, but spent a lot of my youth in a (very! <500) small town. I didn't really get interested in urban living until later on in life.

I think the current movement and desire to reshape urban areas, with millenials carrying the banner, is incredibly important to the future of the country, and the world even. It will mean improved quality of life for everybody. I'm on board. Best.