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Location: Live:Downtown Phoenix, AZ/Work:Greater Los Angeles, CA
27,606 posts, read 14,596,838 times
Reputation: 9169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prickly Pear
The I-10 shouldn't be widened. I'd rather them put a commuter or light rail line in the median than add more lanes. Truth is one light rail line has about the same capacity as a six-lane freeway (so like the old parts of the I-17 or 51) in the space of one or two lanes. Commuter rail with train tracks would hold even more capacity than a light rail line, "heavy" rail as they call it. Wouldn't be surprised if one commuter rail line would cover the capacity of the I-10 as it is now.
We should be looking at developing more lines in central Phoenix and streetcars or other high-capacity with ROW public transit systems in central Phoenix with things like grocery stores and jobs to create car-free living. When Phoenicians finally have an option to choose a car and live in Gilbert or $500/month or more in savings to be car-free then light rail and all other public transit systems will be sustainable. Sometimes you have to put the investment in first and take a risk.
Nonetheless the central Phoenix neighborhoods are already pretty vibrant and would be much more so with easier accessibility by foot. Develop cities with humans in mind and not cars and places start to look alive and people will grow neighborhood identities as the far reaches of their city will no longer feel "just down the street" or "past a few exits on the freeway". Mesa will seem less relevant.
For example Melrose is seeing significant improvements and is growing a strong neighborhood identity similar to Eastlake, Garfield, Willo as far as recognizable boundaries and name recognition goes. The light rail is doing it, but only in central, walkable areas. For example 19th and Dunlap isn't very walkable. But near ASU and Downtown Mesa? You see the investment there.
Both 7's; Indian School, Thomas, Glendale and 24th St are all good candidates for future rail lines in my opinion (though not necessarily MCDOT's or the city of Phoenix's)
Both 7's; Indian School, Thomas, Glendale and 24th St are all good candidates for future rail lines in my opinion (though not necessarily MCDOT's or the city of Phoenix's)
The 7s are 1/2 mile each from Central. Totally inappropriate for rail lines. Thomas is getting BRT (bus rapid transit) soon-ish, we'll see how that works out.
-signed, the guy who lives 1/2 block from 7th Ave and 4 blocks south of Thomas
The I-10 shouldn't be widened. I'd rather them put a commuter or light rail line in the median than add more lanes. Truth is one light rail line has about the same capacity as a six-lane freeway (so like the old parts of the I-17 or 51) in the space of one or two lanes. Commuter rail with train tracks would hold even more capacity than a light rail line, "heavy" rail as they call it. Wouldn't be surprised if one commuter rail line would cover the capacity of the I-10 as it is now.
At this point, anything would be better than the ugly dirt scar in the I10 median that ADOT left behind when they tore out all the landscaping years ago. The plan is for light rail to be installed there, but not for many more years to come. ADOT could have done the smart thing and turned the median into extra lanes until light rail construction begins ... but oh no, they had to leave an unused dirt median while the remaining traffic lanes are jam packed during rush hour every day. It's a huge embarrassment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prickly Pear
We should be looking at developing more lines in central Phoenix and streetcars or other high-capacity with ROW public transit systems in central Phoenix with things like grocery stores and jobs to create car-free living. When Phoenicians finally have an option to choose a car and live in Gilbert or $500/month or more in savings to be car-free then light rail and all other public transit systems will be sustainable. Sometimes you have to put the investment in first and take a risk.
Nonetheless the central Phoenix neighborhoods are already pretty vibrant and would be much more so with easier accessibility by foot. Develop cities with humans in mind and not cars and places start to look alive and people will grow neighborhood identities as the far reaches of their city will no longer feel "just down the street" or "past a few exits on the freeway". Mesa will seem less relevant.
For example Melrose is seeing significant improvements and is growing a strong neighborhood identity similar to Eastlake, Garfield, Willo as far as recognizable boundaries and name recognition goes. The light rail is doing it, but only in central, walkable areas. For example 19th and Dunlap isn't very walkable. But near ASU and Downtown Mesa? You see the investment there.
The increased vibrancy would have happened anyway without light rail. Outside of downtown Phoenix and downtown Tempe/ASU area, many areas along the light rail are still dilapidated with run down structures and swaths of vacant land. Apache Boulevard on the Tempe/Mesa border is a good example of this. The Washington/Jefferson corridor east of 16th Street still looks the same as it did 20 years ago, as do west Camelback between Central & 19th Avenues, and parts of north Central Avenue. I'm not against light rail, but I have yet to see any proof where it's spurring development & revitalization.
At this point, anything would be better than the ugly dirt scar in the I10 median that ADOT left behind when they tore out all the landscaping years ago. The plan is for light rail to be installed there, but not for many more years to come. ADOT could have done the smart thing and turned the median into extra lanes until light rail construction begins ... but oh no, they had to leave an unused dirt median while the remaining traffic lanes are jam packed during rush hour every day. It's a huge embarrassment.
The increased vibrancy would have happened anyway without light rail. Outside of downtown Phoenix and downtown Tempe/ASU area, many areas along the light rail are still dilapidated with run down structures and swaths of vacant land. Apache Boulevard on the Tempe/Mesa border is a good example of this. The Washington/Jefferson corridor east of 16th Street still looks the same as it did 20 years ago, as do west Camelback between Central & 19th Avenues, and parts of north Central Avenue. I'm not against light rail, but I have yet to see any proof where it's spurring development & revitalization.
It’s spurring development along Apache near West Mesa? Have you been over there? Apache looks different than it did even 2 years ago.
Location: Live:Downtown Phoenix, AZ/Work:Greater Los Angeles, CA
27,606 posts, read 14,596,838 times
Reputation: 9169
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbenjamin
The 7s are 1/2 mile each from Central. Totally inappropriate for rail lines. Thomas is getting BRT (bus rapid transit) soon-ish, we'll see how that works out.
-signed, the guy who lives 1/2 block from 7th Ave and 4 blocks south of Thomas
Except that north of Camelback, the rail doesn't run on Central.....
Location: Live:Downtown Phoenix, AZ/Work:Greater Los Angeles, CA
27,606 posts, read 14,596,838 times
Reputation: 9169
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Native
At this point, anything would be better than the ugly dirt scar in the I10 median that ADOT left behind when they tore out all the landscaping years ago. The plan is for light rail to be installed there, but not for many more years to come. ADOT could have done the smart thing and turned the median into extra lanes until light rail construction begins ... but oh no, they had to leave an unused dirt median while the remaining traffic lanes are jam packed during rush hour every day. It's a huge embarrassment.
The increased vibrancy would have happened anyway without light rail. Outside of downtown Phoenix and downtown Tempe/ASU area, many areas along the light rail are still dilapidated with run down structures and swaths of vacant land. Apache Boulevard on the Tempe/Mesa border is a good example of this. The Washington/Jefferson corridor east of 16th Street still looks the same as it did 20 years ago, as do west Camelback between Central & 19th Avenues, and parts of north Central Avenue. I'm not against light rail, but I have yet to see any proof where it's spurring development & revitalization.
I don't know when the last time was that you've been down that way, but I drive by there every day, and they are using the space as storage for materials while constructing the freeway interchange with the 202
Both 7's; Indian School, Thomas, Glendale and 24th St are all good candidates for future rail lines in my opinion (though not necessarily MCDOT's or the city of Phoenix's)
Glendale maybe by DT Glendale but, in Uptown? Not really needed as it's almost entirely low-density residential. Probably better to hike up to Glendale after 35th avenue from Camelback.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbenjamin
The 7s are 1/2 mile each from Central. Totally inappropriate for rail lines. Thomas is getting BRT (bus rapid transit) soon-ish, we'll see how that works out.
-signed, the guy who lives 1/2 block from 7th Ave and 4 blocks south of Thomas
It's not about distance from other lines it's about capacity. Valley Metro is going to put rail and BRT on their busiest bus lines that would provide the best cost-to-benefit ratio. Thomas is the busiest bus route in all of the metro, so they are going to put BRT there to test it out and then maybe change it to light rail in the future. BRT paves the way for light rail in most instances. Second is Indian School, Glendale, and 24th all like Firebird said.
I heard they are also planning to put BRT on Bell Road which is really needed up there. Bell is a scary road to drive on, but not as scary as Camelback or Indian School in my opinion. I haven't heard any more news though.
At this point, anything would be better than the ugly dirt scar in the I10 median that ADOT left behind when they tore out all the landscaping years ago. The plan is for light rail to be installed there, but not for many more years to come. ADOT could have done the smart thing and turned the median into extra lanes until light rail construction begins ... but oh no, they had to leave an unused dirt median while the remaining traffic lanes are jam packed during rush hour every day. It's a huge embarrassment.
The increased vibrancy would have happened anyway without light rail. Outside of downtown Phoenix and downtown Tempe/ASU area, many areas along the light rail are still dilapidated with run down structures and swaths of vacant land. Apache Boulevard on the Tempe/Mesa border is a good example of this. The Washington/Jefferson corridor east of 16th Street still looks the same as it did 20 years ago, as do west Camelback between Central & 19th Avenues, and parts of north Central Avenue. I'm not against light rail, but I have yet to see any proof where it's spurring development & revitalization.
I agree about the median, but we should be looking at smart ways to handle capacity. The I-10 is a bloody disaster I don't know why anyone lives in Litchfield or Avondale for that matter (both nice suburbs but, not worth that hell of a commute honestly). I do wish we prioritized public transit construction the way Los Angeles is doing right now, traffic is getting much worse and waiting until 2035 or so for the new western line is ridiculous. They do need that space for the 202 loop. Once that's done I imagine then they will start on the light rail.
People will only invest and revitalize and develop only where it makes sense to do so. The light rail gives more reasons to do so, but not in all cases. While I am happy that Mesa and Tempe are the only suburbs who seem to participate in reducing congestion and commute times, we should be looking into developing the cores. You see that in between DT Mesa and DT Tempe and DT Phoenix, the areas in between where the light rail runs through is not the best.
Besides to get zoning changes from low-density to high-density and then get approved by boards and fighting NIMBYs takes a long time. Years even. As much as I wish more housing supply would pop up out of thin air it doesn't work that way. It takes time and even Midtown and Downtown are still building and infilling significantly and they have been areas of density for quite some time.
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