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Getting back to the original premise of this thread, it would be interesting to explore what institutions and other city amenities might or might not develop in PHX and other newer cities versus those we're familiar with in older cities.
For example:
- Giant transportation terminals. Grand Central in NY is one of my fave buildings in the world, but it's of another era. In newer big cities, we have neither the density of population or massive movement of non-vehicle commuters to justfy something so... grand. I'd imagine that even in NY they'd be hard pressed to build something so nice from scratch... see the port authroity terminal near Hell's Kitchen, for example.
- Huge govt. buildings. Some of the most impressive buildings in the country country are city/state/fed buildings, particularly those in places that boomed in the 1800s and ealry 1900s. They were built of massive stone and meant to impress. These days, I'm not so sure taxpayers would be too keen to support a state legsilature spending hundreds of millions to build a granite/marble temple to do the people's work. I'm very impressed and love much of what was built, but simply don't think it'll fly in the future. And that's not a PHX things... try and find the city/county govt. building sticking out in San Diego, LA, etc.
- Giant churches, schools, libraries, post offices, theaters and other "public" buildings. Other victims of decentralization. Why have one massive central entity in a spread out place, when a series of hubs might better serve the populace? Some of my fave buildings in the world are of these types, but it just doesn't mesh with newer cities.
- I think the same could be said of Corporate HQs as well. The "towers" and other grand buildings erected in the last 2 centuries were very cool in many cases, but simply wouldn't fly in today's business world. Today's shareholders don't want profits put into fancy buildings. Likewise, corporate accountants view property as a temporary, fluid investment.
The future?
Hard to tell. With so much information at our fingertips, it's intellectually harder to justify spending on major brick and mortar buildings. With modern communications, it's tougher to fund the building of a huge movie theater or post office, when a lot of people download ther movies and mail. On the flip side, going out to the movies is a treat. Walking through a good library is stimulating.
So again it kind of goes back to the original post. PHX is a baby city and rightly can't be judged with the elders. Many of the things that make NY, London, Paris, etc. such great cities is their growth during the industrial revolution, where it was important to porject strength (via govt. and public buildings), and also cater to a huge population of workers who you needed to keep close, yet content.
The future cities, me thinks, are the ones who are going to help provide residents and others with access to ever shifting markets and interests. If you want a library, there will be one, though not with 2 million books. It might have 2 million books and videos one can download, however. The movie theater might not have 400 seats and curtains, but 40 seats, a nice screen and sushi/beer. There might not be a 2,000 acre park, but 20 small parks catering to dogs, kids, volleyball players, etc.
I'm not saying what's good or bad, right or wrong. It's simply a different world.
Getting back to the original premise of this thread, it would be interesting to explore what institutions and other city amenities might or might not develop in PHX and other newer cities versus those we're familiar with in older cities.
For example:
- Giant transportation terminals. Grand Central in NY is one of my fave buildings in the world, but it's of another era. In newer big cities, we have neither the density of population or massive movement of non-vehicle commuters to justfy something so... grand. I'd imagine that even in NY they'd be hard pressed to build something so nice from scratch... see the port authroity terminal near Hell's Kitchen, for example.
- Huge govt. buildings. Some of the most impressive buildings in the country country are city/state/fed buildings, particularly those in places that boomed in the 1800s and ealry 1900s. They were built of massive stone and meant to impress. These days, I'm not so sure taxpayers would be too keen to support a state legsilature spending hundreds of millions to build a granite/marble temple to do the people's work. I'm very impressed and love much of what was built, but simply don't think it'll fly in the future. And that's not a PHX things... try and find the city/county govt. building sticking out in San Diego, LA, etc.
- Giant churches, schools, libraries, post offices, theaters and other "public" buildings. Other victims of decentralization. Why have one massive central entity in a spread out place, when a series of hubs might better serve the populace? Some of my fave buildings in the world are of these types, but it just doesn't mesh with newer cities.
- I think the same could be said of Corporate HQs as well. The "towers" and other grand buildings erected in the last 2 centuries were very cool in many cases, but simply wouldn't fly in today's business world. Today's shareholders don't want profits put into fancy buildings. Likewise, corporate accountants view property as a temporary, fluid investment.
The future?
Hard to tell. With so much information at our fingertips, it's intellectually harder to justify spending on major brick and mortar buildings. With modern communications, it's tougher to fund the building of a huge movie theater or post office, when a lot of people download ther movies and mail. On the flip side, going out to the movies is a treat. Walking through a good library is stimulating.
So again it kind of goes back to the original post. PHX is a baby city and rightly can't be judged with the elders. Many of the things that make NY, London, Paris, etc. such great cities is their growth during the industrial revolution, where it was important to porject strength (via govt. and public buildings), and also cater to a huge population of workers who you needed to keep close, yet content.
The future cities, me thinks, are the ones who are going to help provide residents and others with access to ever shifting markets and interests. If you want a library, there will be one, though not with 2 million books. It might have 2 million books and videos one can download, however. The movie theater might not have 400 seats and curtains, but 40 seats, a nice screen and sushi/beer. There might not be a 2,000 acre park, but 20 small parks catering to dogs, kids, volleyball players, etc.
I'm not saying what's good or bad, right or wrong. It's simply a different world.
The future is being built by the Bidwills in Glendale. They can't run a football team, but they are right on the money with this concept.
The future is being built by the Bidwills in Glendale. They can't run a football team, but they are right on the money with this concept.
In theory, this should be nice, but I've never been to any "master-planned" city where things worked the way the were designed. My favorite places to live and travel have happened organically and didn't have a marquee name like "Del Webb" or "Bidwell." Sadly, most of PHX has sold out and is at the mercy of soulless developers whose creations are destined for anachronistic yuckiness in 10 years. In the meantime, I guess we're stuck with "Ira Fulton presents Phoenix (trademark pending)."
Phoenix has maintained a massive growth streak in recent years, growing by 24.2% since 2000. This makes it the second-fastest-growing metropolitan area in the United States following only Las Vegas, whose population has grown by 29.2% since 2000.[20]
To clarify the 12 million number. Cities have something called "build-out" which is when the city has built much of the land it has. Philly , Chicago, NYC have all reached build out long ago. But Phoenix is a different kind of City covering SO MUCH land you could fit 3 City of Chicagos in the land the City of Phoenix has. Because of this Phoenix is projected to one day have a population of 12 million people. Does that mean it will? No. For sure Chicago will become the 5th largest city as both Houston and Phoenix continue to boom while chicago sits still in population.
Population impacts local economy. As Phoenix continues to grow and Houston new companies will relocate or new ones will pop up in Houston and Phoenix. Its not IF Phoenix passes Chicago its "when". As far as skyline and number of companies HQed I think Chicago will always be a top city. But Phoenix and Houston are also going to have a lot of companies in their cities too.
As far as your comment about Phoenix being like LA or CA I assure you its NOT AT ALL. LA is very liberal Phoenix is very "common sense" this can be seen with them doing their new laws and running illegal aliens out while cities like LA and Chicago take a blind eye to the issue. Phoenix is very much a common sense city while LA and Chicago are not.
First of all, most of your comments are absurd. Phoenix is not going to be bigger than NYC. The growth spurt in Phoenix has just about hit its highest point. Please read the thread "When will Phoenix surpass Houston" on this forum and it explains many of the reasons why the growth has seen its best days.
Second stop with your land rant. Who the heck cares if you can fit 3 city of Chicago's in the Phoenix square mile. That means more sprawl. I already showed you the population density. Phoenix is not going to surpass Chicago. Dream on. Phoenix will not even surpass Houston.
Im done having this back and forth convo with you dude. You need to open your eyes and see that there are other cities in this country and that Phoenix will not surpass all in every category. For being such a large city, the diversity, culture, entertainment, tourism, downtown, and vibe are no where even close. Go ahead and try to argue dude, but its no secret, just look at the posts all around the board. Adios
First of all, most of your comments are absurd. Phoenix is not going to be bigger than NYC. The growth spurt in Phoenix has just about hit its highest point. Please read the thread "When will Phoenix surpass Houston" on this forum and it explains many of the reasons why the growth has seen its best days.
Second stop with your land rant. Who the heck cares if you can fit 3 city of Chicago's in the Phoenix square mile. That means more sprawl. I already showed you the population density. Phoenix is not going to surpass Chicago. Dream on. Phoenix will not even surpass Houston.
Im done having this back and forth convo with you dude. You need to open your eyes and see that there are other cities in this country and that Phoenix will not surpass all in every category. For being such a large city, the diversity, culture, entertainment, tourism, downtown, and vibe are no where even close. Go ahead and try to argue dude, but its no secret, just look at the posts all around the board. Adios
NYC, LA, Chi: I agree that Phx will not surpass any of the above three cities in population any time soon---------Houston, maybe.
Remember that the city of Phoenix ranges from Ahwatukee to Anthem------and, keeps annexing land.
NYC, LA, Chi: I agree that Phx will not surpass any of the above three cities in population any time soon---------Houston, maybe.
Remember that the city of Phoenix ranges from Ahwatukee to Anthem------and, keeps annexing land.
I disagree. Chicago is standing still on population just like Philly is when Phoenix over took it in population. If 10 years ago you would have said " Phoenix will be above Philly in population think you would have been told you are crazy? That is what is going to happen with Houston and Phoenix with Chicago. NYC and LA both added a large amount of population even though they have had build out
But Chicago has remained fairly within the 2.8 million. Phoenix will not surpass Houston. I do not like Houston but lets be realistic here. Houston is growing very fast and in the next decade you are going to see Houston over take Chicago as number 4 in population. Phoenix is also growing very fast. But I do not think it will catch up to NYC or LA or Houston. But as stated Chicago is not really growing that fast anymore. Both Houston and Phoenix will be able to catch CHicago.
I disagree. Chicago is standing still on population just like Philly is when Phoenix over took it in population. If 10 years ago you would have said " Phoenix will be above Philly in population think you would have been told you are crazy? That is what is going to happen with Houston and Phoenix with Chicago. NYC and LA both added a large amount of population even though they have had build out
But Chicago has remained fairly within the 2.8 million. Phoenix will not surpass Houston. I do not like Houston but lets be realistic here. Houston is growing very fast and in the next decade you are going to see Houston over take Chicago as number 4 in population. Phoenix is also growing very fast. But I do not think it will catch up to NYC or LA or Houston. But as stated Chicago is not really growing that fast anymore. Both Houston and Phoenix will be able to catch CHicago.
Point well taken about Houston growing alongside Phoenix.......I 'brain farted' that possibility
Last edited by ArizonaBear; 06-01-2008 at 07:35 PM..
Reason: Fixed the 'quote' code.....it was spurious.
First of all, most of your comments are absurd. Phoenix is not going to be bigger than NYC. The growth spurt in Phoenix has just about hit its highest point. Please read the thread "When will Phoenix surpass Houston" on this forum and it explains many of the reasons why the growth has seen its best days.
Second stop with your land rant. Who the heck cares if you can fit 3 city of Chicago's in the Phoenix square mile. That means more sprawl. I already showed you the population density. Phoenix is not going to surpass Chicago. Dream on. Phoenix will not even surpass Houston.
Im done having this back and forth convo with you dude. You need to open your eyes and see that there are other cities in this country and that Phoenix will not surpass all in every category. For being such a large city, the diversity, culture, entertainment, tourism, downtown, and vibe are no where even close. Go ahead and try to argue dude, but its no secret, just look at the posts all around the board. Adios
"With the job estimates continually being revised upward since 2002, Phoenix is becoming more and more a popular relocation destination. In 2006, Greater Phoenix created a record 106,900 new jobs!!! To put those numbers into perspective, Greater Phoenix was responsible for 1 out of every 25 new jobs created in the entire country for 2006. It is not just jobs it is the type of jobs. In 2006 the largest sector of growth in Greater Phoenix at 21.3% was “Professional and Business Services”. So, not only is Phoenix growing new jobs it is the high paying type of jobs that are being created. By comparison, Los Angeles County created only approximately 85,000 new jobs. Considering the disparity of the population the ratio is significant."
"
So the answer is yes!!! Phoenix can and will sustain the growth for decades to come."
So scottie- I honestly do not care what your opinon or others are on here because the experts on this matter and the FACTS say different.
Census Bureau Announces Most Populous Cities ( taken from Census Bureau website)
"Phoenix had the largest population increase of any city between 2005 and 2006, adding more than 43,000 residents to reach 1.5 million. However, Texas dominated the list of the 10 highest numerical gainers, with San Antonio, Fort Worth, Houston, Austin and Dallas each making the top 10. North Las Vegas; Miami; Charlotte, N.C.; and San Jose, Calif., rounded out the list of the 10 biggest numerical gainers. "
In terms of MSA actually by 2025 San Fran, San Jose, Oakland will become the 3rd largest metro area in the country (over Chicago--Gary--Kenosha)
This info is from US Metropolitan Area Population Projections
" Population Projections
The Greater Phoenix population is projected to grow at more than twice the national rate for the next several decades. The next 50 years will see nearly 150% increase in population to more than
Let me say Scottie and Steve. I too like Chicago I am moving to Phoenix because its in my opinion a better city it has more of what I want. I also look forward to watching the birth of a global city take shape while I live my life there. That does not mean I hate Industrial built cities like Chicago, Detroit, Philly. But EVERYTHING changes and with current trends and future ones Chicago will be number 5 in population.
As I already stated do you think that in 1960 or even 1980 or 1990 someone would have stated "Phoenix will surpass Philly as the 5th largest city" you know no one would believe it. If someone would have stated in the 1940s too that the second largest city in the country Chicago was going to be surpassed by a little city on the West Coast called LA they too would have been laughed at. But in the 1980s Chicago did take the 3rd place spot.
Between 1990-2000 Chicago did in fact grow in population. But at 4% its not compared to Houston, Phoenix, San Antonio, Dallas, Las Vegas.
Right now there is NOTHING to prevent Phoenix from the continue of growth it has. Its got plenty of water. Its got plenty of land. Its got plenty of quality of life and investment.
More importantly above all its got plenty of people that want to move there. Thats the funny thing that some people such as yourself can not seem to get. People LOTS of people still move there every year.
April 1, 1990 April 1, 2000 -------% (NOT METRO AREAS--JUST CITIES)
Chicago 2,783,726 2,896,016 --------4
Houston 1,630,553 1,953,631 --------19.8
PHOENIX 983,403 1,321,045 --------34.3
"The 2006 census estimate pegged Houston’s population at 2144491, only 700000 behind third-place Chicago."
Last edited by oak999; 06-01-2008 at 08:10 PM..
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