Toll Roads and HOT lanes...

[mattpresley]

I like the Idea. It's not something I would utilize everyday but a can pay up when I need it. Once upon a time I considered picking up a pisa at home depot so I can drive in th HOV. No trolling, true story however I didn't follow thru

[Valley Native]

Originally Posted by garisonthebull

Privatization has no real business in public owned enterprises! In other words I do not want to sell state or even private land to any investor trying to run a private business that should otherwise be a public affair.

Ideally, you're correct. However, ADOT has proven to us multiple times that they are too corrupt and incompetent to manage the public funds which are alloted for building/maintaining freeways. The voters of Maricopa County approved additional funding for freeways twice ... and both times, ADOT failed to fully complete what they initially promised. As an example, take a look at what was presented to us in 1985, and what actually was built. Due to ADOT's mis management of funds, we have a scaled back freeway system compared to what was supposed to be 231 new miles of freeways (according to the 1985 plan).

So while roads are traditionally publicly funded amenities, the government can't seem to get a grip on managing budgeted funds correctly ... so we end up with long delays, excuses, and even massive cutbacks because we allow it to happen. While you may not agree with it, the solution is privatization (or at least partial privatization) of the highway system. HOT lanes are a good option because they give drivers a CHOICE to move along faster in the HOV lanes for a user fee. This concept seems to have worked well in other metro areas, so why not give it a try here?

Originally Posted by garisonthebull

Would you let your home be plowed down for a freeway that you have to pay to use? I didn't think so! Now if the state came along and said we have to build this freeway for traffic needs of the state and populace and we have to obtain your property, that would be better cause at least they would not be telling you to pay to use what you once owned.

Tearing down homes to build something new & improved is a harsh reality, regardless of how it's funded. It's called eminent domain. Nobody likes it, but sh*t happens! And incidentally, freeways are NOT free. We are all paying to use them in some form. Every time you buy something that is taxable, you are paying for freeways. HOT lanes are simply an extra option ... so if you don't favor them, you won't be forced to use them, and won't have to pay the toll.

[fcorrales80]

Originally Posted by mattpresley

I like the Idea. It's not something I would utilize everyday but a can pay up when I need it. Once upon a time I considered picking up a pisa at home depot so I can drive in th HOV. No trolling, true story however I didn't follow thru

Pisa...LOL, you mean Paisa...

[fcorrales80]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

Ideally, you're correct. However, ADOT has proven to us multiple times that they are too corrupt and incompetent to manage the public funds which are alloted for building/maintaining freeways. The voters of Maricopa County approved additional funding for freeways twice ... and both times, ADOT failed to fully complete what they initially promised. As an example, take a look at what was presented to us in 1985, and what actually was built. Due to ADOT's mis management of funds, we have a scaled back freeway system compared to what was supposed to be 231 new miles of freeways (according to the 1985 plan).

So while roads are traditionally publicly funded amenities, the government can't seem to get a grip on managing budgeted funds correctly ... so we end up with long delays, excuses, and even massive cutbacks because we allow it to happen. While you may not agree with it, the solution is privatization (or at least partial privatization) of the highway system. HOT lanes are a good option because they give drivers a CHOICE to move along faster in the HOV lanes for a user fee. This concept seems to have worked well in other metro areas, so why not give it a try here?



Tearing down homes to build something new & improved is a harsh reality, regardless of how it's funded. It's called eminent domain. Nobody likes it, but sh*t happens! And incidentally, freeways are NOT free. We are all paying to use them in some form. Every time you buy something that is taxable, you are paying for freeways. HOT lanes are simply an extra option ... so if you don't favor them, you won't be forced to use them, and won't have to pay the toll.

Lots of truth here except, we failed on our promise to ADOT as well in that vote. We, the public, were supposed to continue spending at 2000 and 2004 levels in order to continue building freeways at the pace ADOT proposed. But since spending has fallen, and less gas has been purchased the last two years, ADOT has much less money to work with and projects will have to slow in order for the revenue stream to catch up.

[joninaz]

What happened in SoCal is that the Toll Road companies required agreements that prohibited the expansion of public freeways. That makes sense for them... it funnels cars onto their platform. And cities, hungry for growth at no cost, jumped right in. But when a region grows fast, the public-serving agencies are stuck with an inability to expand and prohibited to compete.

[Valley Native]

Originally Posted by fcorrales80

Lots of truth here except, we failed on our promise to ADOT as well in that vote. We, the public, were supposed to continue spending at 2000 and 2004 levels in order to continue building freeways at the pace ADOT proposed. But since spending has fallen, and less gas has been purchased the last two years, ADOT has much less money to work with and projects will have to slow in order for the revenue stream to catch up.

No, the failure was with ADOT and MAG. They based their freeway construction budget on the better economic times, and did not take into consideration that economic slumps DO happen periodically. Furthermore, the 2004 ballot proposition that extended the tax for further freeway construction & improvements was supposed to be "recession proof". I'm just glad I didn't buy their lies and false promises after experiencing their past squandering of public money. Obviously, ADOT hasn't changed at all ... at least not for the better. They still can't manage a relatively simple budget, so we end up with these shortfalls, and these much needed projects end up being delayed, scaled back, or even cancelled entirely. Privatization and user fees are the solution (at least for now). Anything that will get the bozos at ADOT out of the picture, even just partially, would be an improvement.

[fcorrales80]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

No, the failure was with ADOT and MAG. They based their freeway construction budget on the better economic times, and did not take into consideration that economic slumps DO happen periodically. Furthermore, the 2004 ballot proposition that extended the tax for further freeway construction & improvements was supposed to be "recession proof". I'm just glad I didn't buy their lies and false promises after experiencing their past squandering of public money. Obviously, ADOT hasn't changed at all ... at least not for the better. They still can't manage a relatively simple budget, so we end up with these shortfalls, and these much needed projects end up being delayed, scaled back, or even cancelled entirely. Privatization and user fees are the solution (at least for now). Anything that will get the bozos at ADOT out of the picture, even just partially, would be an improvement.

And HOW where they supposed to "predict" when that slump was supposed to occur. Wow, if ADOT and MAG could do that...well, obviously they didn't and couldn't calculate what that decline would look like. Even now economist around the country are wondering, who has hit bottom, are we at the equilibrium? The stock market is climbing, yet spending is at an all time low, and unemployment is picking up in some states. That wasn't entirely predictable. One problem with taxation especially when project dependent is knowing when the current levels will falter and become inadequate.

They haven't "squandered" money since there isn't any to "squander" yet. They work on a "revenue stream model" which prevents large deficits by ADOT...now if ADOT actually promised to build the freeways exactly as scheduled, they would have borrowed to continue spending and then our state's budget deficit now would look tiny. If you also read the props and the information supplied, you'd read that projects were dependent on sales tax and gas tax collection. Basically, we don't get more than what ADOT can afford to currently spend and what they have collected from us in taxes.