West Penn Hosp area and Lawrenceville (Pittsburgh, Wilkinsburg: hoa, work, hospital)

[accm10]

Hi...

I will be starting the nursing program at west penn shortly and I am wondering about the safety of the neighborhood.

I've read many threads that friendship are is generally safe, but I know that Garfield can be really dicey and it seems really close. Also I used to work in the East Liberty area mid to late 80's and had my car broken into 3 different times all in front of the police station.

They will be transporting us from mccandless parking lot to west penn and there's a guard in the box till midnight at the lawrenceville site. The lot has a chain link fence and barbed wire...if it's such a decent area, why all the precautions? Have there been incidents?

I'm a street smart person, but I'd just like to know how on high alert I need to be. I guess the news stories in other parts of the country make you question your own areas.

TIA

[barneyg]

I lived in Lawrenceville, close to the new Children's Hospital (Penn/Main) for 2 years, and my wife, infant daughter and I took many walks from there to Friendship Park (right in front of West Penn), on Liberty Ave and on every side street in the area. Later at night we used to avoid Penn Ave east of, say, Millvale Ave, but other than that we never felt unsafe in the area (including my wife who took many walks alone or with our daughter). I'm not aware of any incidents around West Penn that made the news, at least in the past couple of years.

[accm10]

thanks that's good to know.

I didn't even give it a 2nd thought of going back to that area after so many years...but recent U.S. news events, DH and I did a mock run to check out the area, it looked fine, but our son thinks I should carry "something"! I guess we all have to be cautious, but not to the point of paranoid!

It's sad b/c I remember many a good lunch at Lucky Garden (if it's even still there) and really good pizza at Sharp Edge. I hear that's still there and I told my DH he probably enjoy their beer selection.

I like West Penn's "small town feel" and I seem to get that vibe from the neighborhood...but it's just curioius that Garfield is so close and yet they don't "cross over" kinda makes you wonder why.

[barneyg]

I don't have the actual PG crime statistics right in front of me now (the link is posted sometimes on the forum), but the feeling I get from Garfield and the rougher parts of Highland Park is that most of the crime there is really targeted at specific people (ie either gang wars or ex-friends or this type of thing), so even going through there, the likelihood of being caught at the wrong place at the wrong time is lower than, say, Homewood. This would explain why druglords in Garfield don't cross over to Bloomfield and the Italians.

Or maybe it's just my impression.

[CaptainObvious]

Originally Posted by barneyg

I don't have the actual PG crime statistics right in front of me now

No doubt somebody will post them and compare them to an area that is considered generally safe to make a point that Friendship is safer than Neighborhood X.

Originally Posted by barneyg

the feeling I get from Garfield and the rougher parts of Highland Park is that most of the crime there is really targeted at specific people (ie eitpher gang wars or ex-friends or this type of thing)

I think that is probably the case for most crime anywhere. There really aren't too many places full of completely indiscriminate crime. Having said that, the more I read people's posts here, the more I wonder why people are even willing to consider the places where one has to ask..."I know THIS block is safe, but THAT block over there is horrible, should I be worried?" My answer is YES. If you are looking into an area where the "bad" area is BLOCKS away, you're too close. I see all kinds of posts saying, "The X-side of this neighborhood is great, but move over to the Y-side and you'll be shot". Why? All the bad people don't have legs? They can't WALK ONE BLOCK over to your house? Pittsburgh neighborhoods, more so than most other cities I've spent time in, are very small. I mean, here you are talking about "Friendship", which encompasses, what?, 8 blocks total? The area east of Friendship is NOT a good place to be, and seeing as criminals don't look at a map and say "Whoa, wait a minute, I'm in FRIENDSHIP now. I should turn back and head over to East Liberty", I say Friendship is too close to East Liberty.

In fact, I hereby institue the "2 neighborhood rule". You've got to be at least 2 Pittsburgh neighborhoods away from a "bad" neighborhood to be considered a "good" neighborhood. It's risk/reward for me.

I don't know. I'm in a weird mood today.

Captain

[barneyg]

Originally Posted by CaptainObvious

I think that is probably the case for most crime anywhere. There really aren't too many places full of completely indiscriminate crime. Having said that, the more I read people's posts here, the more I wonder why people are even willing to consider the places where one has to ask..."I know THIS block is safe, but THAT block over there is horrible, should I be worried?" My answer is YES. If you are looking into an area where the "bad" area is BLOCKS away, you're too close. I see all kinds of posts saying, "The X-side of this neighborhood is great, but move over to the Y-side and you'll be shot". Why? All the bad people don't have legs? They can't WALK ONE BLOCK over to your house? Pittsburgh neighborhoods, more so than most other cities I've spent time in, are very small. I mean, here you are talking about "Friendship", which encompasses, what?, 8 blocks total? The area east of Friendship is NOT a good place to be, and seeing as criminals don't look at a map and say "Whoa, wait a minute, I'm in FRIENDSHIP now. I should turn back and head over to East Liberty", I say Friendship is too close to East Liberty. In fact, I hereby institue the "2 neighborhood rule". You've got to be at least 2 Pittsburgh neighborhoods away from a "bad" neighborhood to be considered a "good" neighborhood. It's risk/reward for me. I don't know. I'm in a weird mood today.

(Sorry, long post)

Criminals have cars. They can drive anywhere, and if they're stupid enough to walk one block and randomly shoot someone, they're stupid enough to drive 2 neighborhoods (which, as you accurately point out, is not very far in Pittsburgh). They're probably stupid enough to drive 15 miles to Wexford as well. Therefore whether criminals COULD go there is pointless. As a matter of fact I'm not exactly sure where in Pittsburgh you could live with this "2 neighborhood rule" in effect. Even Squirrel Hill is next to Hazelwood, which has very depressed areas. Maybe Brookline? I'm not even sure.

The people living in Friendship (next to East Liberty and Garfield), Shadyside (next to East Liberty and Larimer), Point Breeze (next to Homewood) or Regent Square (next to Wilkinsburg) obviously didn't consider your "2 neighborhood rule". I don't think it's because they're stupid. Rather, they realize that the overwhelming majority of violent crime is NOT random, and so they might rather be living on Atlantic Ave (blocks away from a "bad" neighborhood) than Gibsonia for all kinds of reasons (to live in an urban setting, to have a short commute...). If crime is very important to them, then they might choose to live in the suburbs, like they would if (public) school districts were important to them.

I don't think this forum's purpose is to decide which criteria ought to be important for newcomers to the city, or how close is too close to a "bad" area. The OP asked for info about the area around West Penn Hospital (officially in Bloomfield, although many people call the area east of it Friendship). It's an area that I know well, and that I've never felt unsafe in. But I did avoid Penn Ave in Garfield at night. Some will feel unsafe around West Penn because Garfield is close. That's fine, they'll live elsewhere.

Personally, I think the "[neighborhood name 1], are you crazy??? it's close to [neighborhood name 2]!!!" type of answer does as much a disservice to information seekers as the "I live in Homewood, it's really a fun, quiet neighborhood to live in" type of answer does.

[CaptainObvious]

Originally Posted by barneyg

Criminals have cars. They can drive anywhere, and if they're stupid enough to walk one block and randomly shoot someone

Their stupidity was not in question, rather their laziness. If they need a car stereo to sell for their crack, a diamond necklace to hawk for their meth, or some cash from your wallet for a gun, trust me- they aren't driving to Wexford when they can walk over to Shadyside.

Speaking of which...I was ready for the Squirrel Hill and Shadyside examples being close to "bad" areas and still "nice". As for that, I'd say you picked two of the largest neighborhoods in the city. The middle of those neighborhoods are decent and the fringes are, well, the fringes. When you're talking about tiny neighborhoods such as Friendship and Garfield, the "middle" of the neighborhood is, what?, one house? When you've got less than a couple of blocks between you and the local crack house (is that term still around?....probably "meth lab" nowadays) that's too close for me. I know, I know, meth labs can be found in the hills of West Virginia and crack houses may be next door to millionaires in Fox Chapel. My original point was...why bother yourself with these decisions? If you have to ask how close the really bad area is, the bad area is too close. That's my opinion. There are plenty of towns where you can literally drive for miles on end with no overt signs of criminal activity. I am sure it exists, but at least it isn't consuming the neighborhood. Shadyside, for example, completely perplexes me...why, if you've got $1.5M to drop on a home, would you do it where you can LITERALLY throw a stone and hit a thug? Why wouldn't you want to be in Fox Chapel or Sewickley Heights? No 5 minute commute is worth ever infringing ghetto. Me? I'll take my money 15 minutes north and live where the criminals would have to drive to, not walk.

Originally Posted by barneyg

I don't think it's because they're stupid. Rather, they realize that the overwhelming majority of violent crime is NOT random, and so they might rather be living on Atlantic Ave (blocks away from a "bad" neighborhood) than Gibsonia for all kinds of reasons

I don't think it's because they're stupid either. They just have a much larger affinity for risk than I.

Originally Posted by barneyg

It's an area that I know well, and that I've never felt unsafe in. But I did avoid Penn Ave in Garfield at night. Some will feel unsafe around West Penn because Garfield is close. That's fine

That's my point. Why live somewhere you have to avoid? You just finished posting a novel sticking-up for a neighborhood only to end it with the area that is to be avoided. My point is, if you've got to "avoid" a freakin' section of your neighborhood, it isn't a good one. Now will come all the examples of shining cities on the hill that are very nice little communities that all have sections to avoid. Yawn. My point is, if you've got to avoid the main street in your neighborhood, something is amiss.

Originally Posted by barneyg

Personally, I think the "[neighborhood name 1], are you crazy??? it's close to [neighborhood name 2]!!!" type of answer does as much a disservice to information seekers as the "I live in Homewood, it's really a fun, quiet neighborhood to live in" type of answer does.

Ahhhh! We agree on something. It probably isn't too constructive, and therefore I should look at my original reply. Still, the OP is looking for opinions on a neighborhood, and that's my opinion. She can take it with a grain of salt, lump it in with the other dozens of rave reviews about Friendship and Garfield, and completely discount it if she wishes. I just think out-of-towners coming into the city would be absolutely shocked at what locals consider "nice" and what they consider "close to the bad areas". We here in Pittsburgh have a very limited scope of things at times.

As always, I am perfectly willing to accept all my premises are based on horribly flawed logic. (but I don't think so! )

Captain

[barneyg]

Originally Posted by CaptainObvious

Why live somewhere you have to avoid?

(First off, you don't live _in_ the bad area, you live _close to_ a bad area. Your point is "if you have to ask, it's too close". My point is, the OP didn't ask whether it was too close to Garfield, you can take a map and look it up.)

I never was an advocate to living in Garfield, I know people who are not as risk averse as I am and like living there for the (admittedly small) arts scene that's developing around Penn Ave. However, whether or not Friendship is a good place to live for _you_ depends on _your_ personal answer to "how close is too close".

As for Shadyside, your answers sums it up. Why live in the city when you can live in the suburbs? Maybe it's because crime isn't the end of the world for many people, and there are positives like walking to a coffee shop or a music store. You can do that in Shadyside as well as in many city neighborhoods, but not in Fox Chapel or Sewickley Heights.

Originally Posted by CaptainObvious

Ahhhh! We agree on something. It probably isn't too constructive, and therefore I should look at my original reply. Still, the OP is looking for opinions on a neighborhood, and that's my opinion. She can take it with a grain of salt, lump it in with the other dozens of rave reviews about Friendship and Garfield, and completely discount it if she wishes. I just think out-of-towners coming into the city would be absolutely shocked at what locals consider "nice" and what they consider "close to the bad areas". We here in Pittsburgh have a very limited scope of things at times.

I'm not from Pittsburgh. I lived outside the US for most of my life in a metro area of 700,000 that probably has an average of 1 murder/year and virtually no other type of violent crime. I wasn't shocked. My feeling about this discussion if that it isn't Pittsburgh-specific; to me, it's the typical city vs. suburb question.

[CaptainObvious]

Originally Posted by barneyg

whether or not Friendship is a good place to live for _you_ depends on _your_ personal answer to "how close is too close".

Touche! My personal opinion is that a couple of blocks is too close. I suppose that's what I should have written in the first place. Almost all city neighborhoods have some higher rate of crime, beit violent or not, than suburban neighborhoods. In many cases I can see where the pros outweigh the cons...walking to the corner coffee shop and bicycling to work might be worth an extra meth lab or two in the neighborhood. But Friendship and Garfield are two places where the cons outweigh the pros for me....and if that doesn't hinge on safety per se, than it has something to do with the general condition of the place...it just isn't that nice of a place, in my humble opinion, and your money is better spent elsewhere for a myriad of reasons. I just try to be honest here, and attempt to forgo the bias that most people have for "their hometown". I've spent plenty of time in Friendship...met one of my best friends walking their dog across of West Penn Hospital in that little park...but just because I've had good experiences there doesn't mean I'm ready to recommend people move right in. Again- there are better places, even for those who will be attending West Penn's nursing school (like the OP) out there. I'll be the only one in this thread that says its not that nice of a place...as you mentioned before, the "I live in Homewood and just love it!" posts do no good to anyone.

CaptainO

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by barneyg

As for Shadyside, your answers sums it up. Why live in the city when you can live in the suburbs?

What's obvious about Captain Obvious is that he prefers the suburbs.

Originally Posted by barneyg

Maybe it's because crime isn't the end of the world for many people, and there are positives like walking to a coffee shop or a music store. You can do that in Shadyside as well as in many city neighborhoods, but not in Fox Chapel or Sewickley Heights.

You can do that in Aspinwall or the actual town of Sewickley though.