Why is area municipal fragmentation so hard to solve? (Pittsburgh: crime, employment)

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by North Beach Person

Are you guys talking merging services like Police and Planning or a total merge to create a new Boro/Town/City?

Spangler and Barnesboro merged several years ago to become Northern Cambria and it still isn't working.

Most, if not all, small towns have a distinct personality that really doesn't mesh well with others (school districts in PA have that, too).

My Town down here abuts another one and every few years some newcomer brings up the idea of a merger. Neither Town wants it because the personalities of the towns are so different. They used to be similar but the other one has become upscale (at least they think so) while mine has remained true to its working class roots. We do share some services like sewer and a Sheriff's detachment based here, though.

It's not the same in Maryland and Pennsylvania though.

My understanding is Maryland has essentially a Southern model of local government - strong counties, some cities, a few towns, but lots of unincorporated county land. Hell, Baltimore County doesn't have a single incorporated municipality.

In Pennsylvania, every square inch is more or less incorporated. Technically, townships aren't incorporated the way a New England Town is IIRC, but in practice, the powers of a Township are identical to a city or a borough.

[North Beach Person]

Originally Posted by eschaton

It's not the same in Maryland and Pennsylvania though.

My understanding is Maryland has essentially a Southern model of local government - strong counties, some cities, a few towns, but lots of unincorporated county land. Hell, Baltimore County doesn't have a single incorporated municipality.

In Pennsylvania, every square inch is more or less incorporated. Technically, townships aren't incorporated the way a New England Town is IIRC, but in practice, the powers of a Township are identical to a city or a borough.

You'd be correct, although most Towns in MD actually have more power than the surrounding County in many cases. Compared to PA, County government in MD is way stronger.

I threw in since I thought that individual Boro culture was being ignored in you all's (or younz if you prefer) discussion.

[gg]

How would you feel if a wealthier part of Fox Chapel seceded from your area, taking its tax revenue with it?

Not worried. All the attorney's living around here will tie it up in court till I die. Seriously, I am in FC and I don't think they want to rid our tax revenue. I can throw a stone at a million dollar home.



Depends upon what you mean by better. In in terms of bang for the buck, and we're great. We're also an amazingly safe urban area. And our economic fortunes during the recession were dramatically different from most of the country. That doesn't mean we have absolutely nothing to learn from anyone else. I think we're as successful as a city which has been in decline for 60 years (with a possible revival now) can be, but I think cities like New York and Boston, which found a way to transition back to growth following the nadir of cities in the 1970s, are more successful. In different ways, I'd say we have lessens to learn from Portland, Seattle, San Francisco, Austin - a number of different places. Hell, Salt Lake City has put light rail in now.

We haven't been in decline in the past decade, we were more stabilized. Plodding along. It isn't like we turned the corner this year. Pittsburgh trends move slow and I have a feeling will continue to move slow. Your thread isn't going to happen. I am not saying a place like Wilkinsburg wouldn't go for it, but for the most part most places like a little home town feel. Merging school districts were a total disaster and people in our area know it well. Remember, Pittsburgh has people that don't forget the mistakes. People don't want to give up their little boroughs and townships. People know the mayor and know the policemen. They know people in the borough offices and are treated well and not like some number. This isn't NYC. This is Pittsburgh and what makes it great is our little bits and pieces. You want to be some number in a big huge place, move. You don't belong in a friendly small town feel city. It is unique and I feel other cities can learn from us. Name another city as big as Pittsburgh that somehow keeps its small town feel? Good luck. We are a gem. You are proposing us to become a number town and not a person town. I VOTE NO WAY! PERIOD!

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by North Beach Person

I threw in since I thought that individual Boro culture was being ignored in you all's (or younz if you prefer) discussion.

No, what you're talking about is certainly an issue.

However, there are not 121 different local cultures. Examples of logical cultural matches were already given by ferrarisnowday. Other examples would be:

Crafton/Ingram
Avalon/Bellvue
Baldwin(both)/Brentwood/Whitehall/Castle Shannon
Churchill/Wilkins/Forest Hills/Chalfant

[Evergrey]

Originally Posted by North Beach Person

Are you guys talking merging services like Police and Planning or a total merge to create a new Boro/Town/City?

Spangler and Barnesboro merged several years ago to become Northern Cambria and it still isn't working.

Most, if not all, small towns have a distinct personality that really doesn't mesh well with others (school districts in PA have that, too).

Can you elaborate on the dysfunction in Northern Cambria?

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by h_curtis

People don't want to give up their little boroughs and townships. People know the mayor and know the policemen. They know people in the borough offices and are treated well and not like some number. This isn't NYC. This is Pittsburgh and what makes it great is our little bits and pieces. You want to be some number in a big huge place, move. You don't belong in a friendly small town feel city. It is unique and I feel other cities can learn from us. Name another city as big as Pittsburgh that somehow keeps its small town feel? Good luck. We are a gem. You are proposing us to become a number town and not a person town. I VOTE NO WAY! PERIOD!

The attitude you describe is alive and well within the neighborhoods of Pittsburgh! Seriously, you see the same dynamic, with tiny official neighborhoods split for sometimes no apparent reason, is endemic here. Yes, there is a wider Pittsburgh identity, but people in the suburbs believe they are "from Pittsburgh" too for some odd reason. In some ways, I'd argue that the small-town vibe you describe is far more present in large portions of the city proper than some of the outlying townships. Certainly somewhere like Morningside is a far more coherent community than Robinson. So clearly, you don't need your own police, fire, school system, etc in order to retain such a sentiment.

[gg]

Originally Posted by eschaton

The attitude you describe is alive and well within the neighborhoods of Pittsburgh! Seriously, you see the same dynamic, with tiny official neighborhoods split for sometimes no apparent reason, is endemic here. Yes, there is a wider Pittsburgh identity, but people in the suburbs believe they are "from Pittsburgh" too for some odd reason. In some ways, I'd argue that the small-town vibe you describe is far more present in large portions of the city proper than some of the outlying townships. Certainly somewhere like Morningside is a far more coherent community than Robinson. So clearly, you don't need your own police, fire, school system, etc in order to retain such a sentiment.

Morningside. Another example of an elementary school that was crushed and hurt that part of the city very much so. What happened because of it? A little Cathoilc School picked up the pieces. Look, what you are proposing is a death sentence. It is bad! Nothing good about it. Sure, you want to share a fire department or police in neighboring places, I can see that, but for the most part your idea is death to a great place. I want no part of it. I am a huge money saving type, but some things are worth paying for. Service and a sense of community. I don't know what else to say? The small elementary schools that are gone now hurt the city, not helped areas. I can't think of ANYTHING good about merging everyone into a pot and all are some non personalized number. Move to DC and you will be in heaven. Believe me, real Pittsburgh'ers don't want any part of what you are proposing. Now way!

[gg]

Originally Posted by eschaton

The attitude you describe [i]is alive and well within the neighborhoods of Pittsburgh!

Oh and rightfully so! I have a feeling you didn't grow up here. You don't have enough history to really know what these mergers do. They are horrible and should be fought to the grave. Don't do it!

[North Beach Person]

Originally Posted by Evergrey

Can you elaborate on the dysfunction in Northern Cambria?

Not so much governmental dysfunction but the residents of both places have disliked each other for generations (Spangler was considered the low rent area, if you will) and the older folks have carried that forward to an extent.

My uncle, who is in his 80's, is from Spangler and he refuses to call it Northern Cambria.

The kids I went to college with in the early 70's from that area wouldn't associate with each other (kind of like Serbs and Croats in Pittsburgh).

Those attitudes are still there according to people I know from both places.

[mountainlove]

For those who have been discussing the mergers for the Boroughs and the City, I would also not support a merger with my hometown (Millvale) and the city. Why? Because what has not been discussed is wage taxes. City residents pay 3.5% of their wages to the city. In Millvale we pay 1%. No way would I want to give that cash up - plain and simple.