Amtrak Pennsylvanian service may end (Pittsburgh, Altoona: 2013, purchase, cost)

[2nd trick op]

For the record, dring its heydey, the former Pennnslvania Railroad had a duplicate, or emergency route for every part of its customary Main Line between Jersey City/Newark and Chicago. When a derailment between Harrisburg and Altoona, for example, put the Main Line temporarily out of business, traffic could be diverted via Sunbury, Willaimspoert and Lock Haven, but only up to a point due to the limitations of the double and sometines, single track on those lines.

West of Cresson, the alternatives were even better, since the PRR built (and Norfok Southern still operates) the "Conemaugh Line" from a point near Blairsville to the North Side of Pittsburgh.

And the PRR also retained the "H&P" or "Morrison Cove" line between Petersburg (a few miles west of Huntingdon) and Hollidaysburg, roughly paralell to, but seldom vidsible from US route 22. Those of us who are old enough to recall the old route 22 from the "foot of ten" to Cresson might remember the underpass beneath the PRR tracks. That was the "Muleshoe Curve" a smaller companion to the Horsehoe, but with somewhat stiffer grades; it was favored for returning empty hopper trains to the Cambria and Clearfield Couty mines, but could also be used as another freight bypass.

With the exception of the Conemaugh Line, all of the trackage cited was either taken out or drastically downgraded after 1977, particuarly when the "rust belt" economy contracted in the early 1980's. For the most part, the grading is still usable, but the curves are too tight for the High Speed Rail systems currently being ballhooed without a sufficent knowledge of the engineering constraints involved.

[pman]

Originally Posted by 2nd trick op

...
.... or spending literally tens of millions on a completely new system, based upon the class-conscious, rigid European system toward which many of us hold an instinctive wariness.
...

this is one of the silliest things I've ever read about rail. there's no need for a new system, new rights of way are no different than new limited access highways and bring "class concious" europeans" seems like a shoddy way to get people who hate europeans (rural republicans) to get all upset about high speed rail as if class has never played a role in the US. high speed rail is a form of transportation not a social structure, constructing new rights of way doesn't need a centralized population. Philly-Pittsburgh is ideal hsr territory, two large cities 265 miles from each other with not much in the way of population centers in between...and existing rail approaches that can be utilized to keep costs down. tens of millions is chump change.

[I_Like_Spam]

Originally Posted by pman

..and existing rail approaches that can be utilized to keep costs down. tens of millions is chump change.

10's of millions can be chump change or not, it really depends on how many passengers can be expected on the line and how much you can charge each one.

If there aren't a sufficient number of people in Pittsburgh who want to go to Philadelphia or come to Pittsburgh from Philadelphia, it would seem to be a waste.

Considering the fact that no private outfit is leaping in to provide this service, I really have doubts as to its viability.

[gwillyfromphilly]

I think you guys are blowing this way out of proportion. I highly doubt Amtrak isn't going to cut service to a line that connects to it's most important rail line in the country.(Northeast Corridor). The Keystone line is very important to the state.

[pman]

Originally Posted by I_Like_Spam

10's of millions can be chump change or not, it really depends on how many passengers can be expected on the line and how much you can charge each one.

If there aren't a sufficient number of people in Pittsburgh who want to go to Philadelphia or come to Pittsburgh from Philadelphia, it would seem to be a waste.

Considering the fact that no private outfit is leaping in to provide this service, I really have doubts as to its viability.

what private outfit?
the problem with the city pair isnt demand but proximity. being close enoigh to drive caps how much you can charge.

gwphilly- amtrak has no choice, its federal law. they are not allowed to lose any money running a train to pittaburgh, sec. 209 of the passenger rail safety act i think. the state either pays for the loss, makes the lone self sufficient via improvements, or amtrak cuts it.

[slamont61]

Without a change in culture any rail service not making a profit or operating at a loss should be terminated.

[ferraris]

Originally Posted by slamont61

Without a change in culture any rail service not making a profit or operating at a loss should be terminated.

I understand this logic, but in most cases I do not agree with it because you have to extend that to all modes of transportation, including roads.

[2nd trick op]

Originally Posted by pman

what private outfit?
the problem with the city pair isnt demand but proximity. being close enoigh to drive caps how much you can charge.

gwphilly- amtrak has no choice, its federal law. they are not allowed to lose any money running a train to pittaburgh, sec. 209 of the passenger rail safety act i think. the state either pays for the loss, makes the lone self sufficient via improvements, or amtrak cuts it.

The section to which I think you're trferring is Section 403(b), which allows for partial Federal underwritig of services funded by (and operating within) only one state. California is the biggest single participant here,, but there are a mumber of others, including Illinois, Vermont, Virginia, North Carolina and Missouri. Pennsylvania participaes not only vie the Pennsylvanian, but via the Philadelphia-Harrisbrg service, which operates at a higher speed due to better signaling and the removal of freight service, except for localdeliveries ay night. That service is also well-patronized by the large number of old order Amish in the Lancaster area.

The displaced freight moves via two former main lines of the Readiing Cmpany, one to Phladelphia via Pottstown, the other to Newark via Allentown. The latter runs within 50 yards of my place in Topton The two merge at Reading.and see a combined olume of about 35 freights a day in ech direction. Most of it continues west to Pittsburgh via Altoona, and it's obvious that it doesn't mix well with the two daily Amtrak moves wet of Harrisburg.

Back in the 1960's, when it was becoming increasingly apparant that the railroads wanted out of the passenger business, there was a lot of discusson about what was referred to as the "iICC formula", which attempted to add the unseeen costs of passenger operation to the "out-of-pocket" costs. It was generally recognized that some services cpvered the crew wages, fuel, supplies, etc. (and this is true today according to some Amtrak accounting measures whic are available to the public.

But when the replacemnt costs of the equioment are factored in, and the costs of "overhead" like auxillary personel (station and other support staff such as dispatchers, signal maintainers, maintnence of way), there is no way Amtrak has been able to demonstrate profitability, from its very inception back in 1971.

Ironically, when I worked for Amtrak back in the Nineties, the most prominent revenue generators were what we called the "clockers" -- two trains in each direction between New York and Philly, run every business day and serving people who commuted between the two cities, Amtrak had responsibility for the service because it involved three states, and they'd upgraded it by using surplus long-distance equipment inherited from the closed-down private carriers out West. Those trains were almost always packed, precisely because they servred s csptive clientele, for which, in most cases, driving was not much of an option.

[pman]

Originally Posted by 2nd trick op

The section to which I think you're trferring is Section 403(b)...

nope, 403b is a nonprofit retirement plan. I'm referring to section 209
AASHTO - High Speed Rail - PRIIA Section 209: State Supported Corridors

Originally Posted by 2nd trick op

Most of it continues west to Pittsburgh via Altoona, and it's obvious that it doesn't mix well with the two daily Amtrak moves wet of Harrisburg.

not really, the problem is that there's two tracks where there used to be four despite the fact that more freight volume moves over it. worse, the line dates to the 1860's when the turnpike follows a freight route from a couple decades later

Originally Posted by 2nd trick op

Ironically, when I worked for Amtrak back in the Nineties, the most prominent revenue generators were what we called the "clockers" -- two trains in each direction between New York and Philly, run every business day and serving people who commuted between the two cities, Amtrak had responsibility for the service because it involved three states, and they'd upgraded it by using surplus long-distance equipment inherited from the closed-down private carriers out West. Those trains were almost always packed, precisely because they servred s csptive clientele, for which, in most cases, driving was not much of an option.

it was stupid of Amtrak to kill the clockers, imo, but I understand that people were taking advantage of the law that allowed njt passholders to rider amtrak clocker trains at discounted prices.

[pman]

there's nothing new in here, just trying to keep it in the press I suppose
Amtrak's regulars treasure the Pennsylvanian - Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Amtrak's regulars treasure train travel