Pittsburgh's "popularity" a problem? (York, Bradford: apartments, mortgage, house)

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Caladium

I agree, sometimes yuppies take over in just the way you describe. But other times the trendy set move in, paying higher rents and so displacing the lower rent paying stores that had been there for years. Then the neighborhood stops being trendy, they move out and a vacant store is left behind. I've seen that happen a few times. To be fair these were things I saw happen a few decades ago, so maybe things have changed. All I know is I learned to be wary of cities and neighborhoods that suddenly become trendy. Although Hopes does make a valid point that the real problem is rising rents. The rents go up when a neighborhood becomes trendy but maybe it isn't fair to blame that on the people moving in. And, if the shop keepers lowered the rents they could probably lure the hardware store and vacuum repairman back. Maybe.

I dunno. I'm unaware of any modern examples of failed "popular" gentrification (e.g., based upon individual homeowners and renters suddenly desiring a neighborhood). There are plenty of examples of failed developer-led gentrification where a city and/or major developers tried to make an area desirable, but fell flat.

What I think has changed is basically there's a lot more urban demand now than there used to be. Whereas in the past a medium-sized city might be able to handle only one trendy neighborhood, now multiple can coexist.

Just to be clear, when you're talking about the "trendy area" moving on, do you mean mixed-use residential and commercial areas? If an area is strictly commercial it can of course fail. The club/bar scene in Pittsburgh migrated in recent decades from the Strip District to Station Square to the South Side. So I can see how the hot hangout can become somewhere new. But I don't see why homeowners in the neighborhood who moved there would suddenly depart en-masse for the next hip place.

Originally Posted by Caladium

In some cities, the boosters for expensive projects that need to be voted on have learned to target the temporary residents--especially college kids and interns, but also the young people who are in town for a few years maybe to start a career or maybe because its a cool place to be. In the last few years, especially, it's been easier to get these groups to vote--and they target them to vote for all kinds of things. And while it's great to see them voting, I wish they wouldn't vote on community issues unless they truly intend to stay in the community for at least a decade. A lot of times they don't really understand the issues or the players, or why ideas have been rejected in earlier years. Unfortunately, it's easy to convince people who are only in town for a few years to vote for a whole laundry list of community services and other expensive things, since they won't ultimately have to pay the bill or deal with the logistics.

This seems totally alien to me. I mean, city politicians and planners do try to create amenities to attract young residents, particularly in places which otherwise might not have an appeal. But I've never heard of local politicians trying to turn out the youth vote for their pet projects. They see young people as cash cows, not a political base.

[Copanut]

Originally Posted by bradjl2009

I agree. The education requirements for many of today's jobs are a joke and completely unnecessary. I know quite a few people who get degrees and said they needed it or could have the job just a well right out of high school. College is a good investment for some jobs, but in respects it has become a scam IMO. It's actually amusing to me how many people think you need the "full college experience" to life a good or have a full life.

I will say that things have changed since my college experience. Wow, it was a great 7 years!!!

I would not give up that 4 years for anything, it was great. And best of all thanks to the Pittsburgh industrial base I got out with no debt.

I think that first year after high school should be spent away from home. Be it college, the armed services, or working on a fishing boat.

Ah, what do I know.

[DaisyDaisy]

Originally Posted by Hopes

Thanks for sharing. It's not just the types and numbers of the jobs. National companies adjust salaries according to cost of living in different cities. Two employees with the same position, education, experience, etc., for the same company will earn completely different salaries if living in San Jose or Pittsburgh.

Exactly. If you use this calculator you can view that a $50k salary in San Jose could adjust to $31536 in Pittsburgh. http://money.cnn.com/calculator/pf/cost-of-living/
It lists how much less you pay in Pittsburgh for groceries, housing, healthcare, etc on average. Ive known a few national companies to use something like this or a multiplier ( ie current salary is at index 1 and new city is 1.3).

[selltheburgh]

Originally Posted by Hopes

The same happens after foreclosures. It's mindboggling.

From what I've seen, only on investment properties. not for homeowners.

[bradjl2009]

Originally Posted by Copanut

I will say that things have changed since my college experience. Wow, it was a great 7 years!!!

I would not give up that 4 years for anything, it was great. And best of all thanks to the Pittsburgh industrial base I got out with no debt.

I think that first year after high school should be spent away from home. Be it college, the armed services, or working on a fishing boat.

Ah, what do I know.

Wait so it was 4 or 7 years?

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by selltheburgh

From what I've seen, only on investment properties. not for homeowners.

That explains it. My friend stupidly foreclosed on investment properties during a nasty divorce. That move came back to bite him big time.

Prior to 2007, people paid taxes on debts forgiven for foreclosures on primary residences too.

Home Foreclosure and Debt Cancellation

[Goodjules]

Originally Posted by Daisy7773

Exactly. If you use this calculator you can view that a $50k salary in San Jose could adjust to $31536 in Pittsburgh. Cost of Living Calculator: Compare the Cost of Living in Two Cities - CNNMoney
It lists how much less you pay in Pittsburgh for groceries, housing, healthcare, etc on average. Ive known a few national companies to use something like this or a multiplier ( ie current salary is at index 1 and new city is 1.3).

Thanks for the link. I compared SF to Pittsburgh and by far the major difference was the cost of housing:

Price difference in Pittsburgh, PA
Groceries 9%less
Housing 73%less
Utilities 10%more
Transportation 0%less
Health Care 17%less

I found those numbers to be very accurate in my case. I've been telling everyone that housing was about 75% less here based on my personal experience. So even if salaries are lower, they're not 73% lower. When you're coming from an area with exorbitant housing costs taking a relatively small cut in income is more than offset by the huge cut in home prices. I realize that not everyone is coming from expensive places, but for those of us who are, Pittsburgh is a veritable Shangri-la. BTW, in my case I have found groceries to be slightly more expensive here.

[DaisyDaisy]

Julie, I agree about the groceries, especially fresh fruits and veggies! Although I've enjoyed some local CSAs, Pgh can't compete with CA when so much more is grown there. Nothing compares to the Alemany farmers market!

[Goodjules]

Originally Posted by Daisy7773

Julie, I agree about the groceries, especially fresh fruits and veggies! Although I've enjoyed some local CSAs, Pgh can't compete with CA when so much more is grown there. I grew up in Contra Costa County and still visit SF. Nothing compares to the Alemany farmers market!

I just saw a sign for a Farmer's Market on Thursdays in Green Tree not far from where i live in Crafton. I'm going to check it out.

I used to go to the Stonestown Farmer's Market on Sundays when I lived in Parkemerced in SF. When I lived in Redwood City I'd go to their Sat market. I loved both. They were small, but had a good variety of vendors. I'm curious as to how the markets here will compare. So far I really miss the grocery, produce and the restaurant options I had in the Bay Area. I love it here otherwise, but the food so far, doesn't compare.

I noticed the bagged salad greens at Trader Joe's in CA are fresher than the same ones in Pittsburgh. I assume it's because the ones here are shipped farther?

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by juliegt

Thanks for the link. I compared SF to Pittsburgh and by far the major difference was the cost of housing:

Price difference in Pittsburgh, PA
Groceries 9%less
Housing 73%less
Utilities 10%more
Transportation 0%less
Health Care 17%less

I found those numbers to be very accurate in my case. I've been telling everyone that housing was about 75% less here based on my personal experience. So even if salaries are lower, they're not 73% lower. When you're coming from an area with exorbitant housing costs taking a relatively small cut in income is more than offset by the huge cut in home prices. I realize that not everyone is coming from expensive places, but for those of us who are, Pittsburgh is a veritable Shangri-la. BTW, in my case I have found groceries to be slightly more expensive here.

Julie, I understand that Pittsburgh's housing prices are Shangri-la for you. It just seems you don't understand that rising housing prices are a big deal to people who have lived here their whole lives. Every time you bring up San Fran and how expensive it is, and Pittsburgh is never going to get that expensive, it's like you're minimizing what's happening.

Any significant increase in housing costs will be a big deal because it's the main factor for Pittsburgh's low cost of living. The fact salaries aren't 73% lower is proof of how great our standard of living is. Pittsburghers enjoy a lot of expendable income. That's the reason your real estate agent told you most people buy houses with cash here. Pittsburghers have cash.

We've always enjoyed a very stable housing market with steady appreciation. If housing prices continue to quickly increase without income increases, Pittsburghers will be cutting back somewhere. They might not suffer in comparison to your San Fran experience, but the standard of living will be lowered regardless. It might mean less vacations. It might mean not being able to pay 100% of children's college education. It might mean not being able to buy new cars. I suspect for many, it might mean not being able to pay utilities or buy groceries at times. All of those things are a change in standard of living. Just because we've never suffered a high cost of living area doesn't mean that we have to be happy with what's happening even if it doesn't get that bad.

I was really upset when the housing market crashed in other areas of the country. Here we were doing everything right---living within our means, not using credit. Poof. Everyone else crashed the economy. Pittsburgh got through it because of the low housing prices. People might have lost millions in the stock market but they aren't sitting on property that is mortgaged higher than what the property is valued. People might have lost their jobs but many were able to pay their mortgages. People tightened their belts and weathered the storm. Low cost of living is a big reason Pittsburgh is one of three cities that are considered fully recovered from the recession. The other two cities, Dallas and Knoxville, have low cost of living too.

Pittsburgh was one of the best kept secrets. Everyone thought it was a smoky, gets dark by noon, uneducated city. I liked it that way. As soon as Pittsburgh started getting all of the positive attention, I predicted this was going to happen long before it started. I'm really glad people are coming here. I just want them to come VERY SLOWLY. I'm not fearing San Fran cost of living. I don't want any increase in the cost of living for the sake of the younger Pittsburghers who are still working towards financial security.