Thoughts on the next Pittsburgh neighborhood to gentrify? (Crafton, Millvale: low crime, hotel)

[SteelCityRising]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Some of the ranches are quite dumpy. Moorewood has a ton.

Meh. I've actually delivered to one of those homes before (along with the "castle across Castleman"). They're certainly not "dumps". They DO stick out in an otherwise historic neighborhood like sore thumbs (similar to the vinyl-clad monstrosities on Herron Avenue in Polish Hill). Is that what you meant? I'm by no means a fan of 1960s-era ranchers (why I would never live in Stanton Heights), but those homes are certainly very well-maintained and very habitable. There's actually a stone-front rancher right around the corner on Ellsworth Avenue (between Devonshire and Morewood) that I really love. It looks much older and mature than it probably truly is.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by SteelCityRising

Meh. I've actually delivered to one of those homes before (along with the "castle across Castleman"). They're certainly not "dumps". They DO stick out in an otherwise historic neighborhood like sore thumbs (similar to the vinyl-clad monstrosities on Herron Avenue in Polish Hill). Is that what you meant? I'm by no means a fan of 1960s-era ranchers (why I would never live in Stanton Heights), but those homes are certainly very well-maintained and very habitable. There's actually a stone-front rancher right around the corner on Ellsworth Avenue (between Devonshire and Morewood) that I really love. It looks much older and mature than it probably truly is.

I don't think of "dumpy looking" as meaning they are dumps, just that in terms of size and ostentatiousness, they look ridiculous being where they are. It's like the average-looking 5'4" guy who hangs out with a bunch of handsome basketball players. He can't help but look bad in comparison.

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by selltheburgh

It is funny when somebody from the far north suburbs thinks they know more about Highland Park or East Liberty than the people who live there.

I'm not saying I know more about it now. I know more about the history. I responded to a post someone made about the history---saying it had never gentrified, that it has always been blighted with mansions turned into apartment buildings. I know about the history because the families of my husband and my friends were from Highland Park and East Liberty prior to moving to the suburbs. It was not always like it is now. It was not always rentals and houses turned into multi units. Highland Park might be a nice neighborhood, but it is not anything like it was in the past.

[jay5835]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I don't think of "dumpy looking" as meaning they are dumps, just that in terms of size and ostentatiousness, they look ridiculous being where they are. It's like the average-looking 5'4" guy who hangs out with a bunch of handsome basketball players. He can't help but look bad in comparison.

Do you mean that they are ostentatious in their smallness?

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by jay5835

Do you mean that they are ostentatious in their smallness?

I mean lack of ostentatiousness. Victorian houses, even when modest, tend to be ornate, and ornateness has basically gone down steadily on houses for the past century now.

[jay5835]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I mean lack of ostentatiousness. Victorian houses, even when modest, tend to be ornate, and ornateness has basically gone down steadily on houses for the past century now.

I'm talking about the 1960s houses on Morewood Avenue. Here's the highly unostentatious #809:

https://maps.google.com/maps?oe=utf-...ed=0CDMQ8gEwAA

An old friend whose grandmother lived in one called them "bubbe houses." His grandmother lived in one, so she could be close to her family in Squirrel Hill. She liked it because it was mainly on one level. In my dotage, I am aware of a growing distaste for stairs.

[fat lou]

Originally Posted by Hopes

I'm not saying I know more about it now. I know more about the history. I responded to a post someone made about the history---saying it had never gentrified, that it has always been blighted with mansions turned into apartment buildings.

Oh, I never said that HP has always been blighted, or even that it's all that blighted now. At one time it was obviously a very wealthy neighborhood. But how long ago was that? For as long as I can remember it has been what it is now: a serious big mix, with some of the big houses occupied by fairly wealthy people, but also many of them cut up into apartments.

[fat lou]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Argh, I meant slopes, which should be obvious.



I dunno...looking on Zillow, I see the following, discounting new or newish construction

Lower Lawrenceville - North of Penn
1 BR, 1.5 BA Loft - $335,000
3 BR, 2 BA House - $285,000
2 BR, 1 BA House - $80,000 (gut job I'm sure)

Lower Lawrenceville - South of Penn
3 BR. 2 BA - $215,000
3 BR, 1 BA - $115,000
2 BR, 1 BA - $114,000
3 BR, 1 BA - $99,000

Central Lawrenceville - South of Butler
3 BR, 2.5 BA - $265,000
5 BR, 2 BA - $230,000
2 BR, 1 BA - $120,000 (in alley)

Central Lawrenceville - North of Butler
3 BR, 2.5 BA - $299,750
1 BR, 1 BA - $235,000 (condo)
2 BR, 1 BA - $225,000
3 BR, 1 BA - $224,900
2 BR, 1.5 BA - $219,900
1 BR, 1 BA - $209,000 (condo)
2 BR, 1 BA - $137,500 (under 900 square feet)
1 BR, 1 BA - $124,900 (in alley)

Upper Lawrenceville:
3 BR, 1.5 BA - $144,900
3 BR, 1 BA - $95,000 (in alley)
2 BR, 2 BA - $69,900 (in alley)
3 BR, 1 BA - $59,000
2 BR, 1 BA - $17,997 (for sale by owner, gut job, but he must be an idiot)

In general, this fits with what I said. Houses are not put on the market for under $200,000 in Lawrenceville unless.

1. They are in Upper Lawrenceville
2. They're in the "no-man's land" south of Penn close to Bloomfield
3. They are gut jobs
4. They are in an alley

The only exception is the house on 44th, which as I mention, is under 900 square feet. It also has no yard, because alley houses are directly behind it. It's virtually an alley house itself.

Ah, just I though, you're only including ninth ward when you say "Lawrenceville." Well, as you can see, there are still cheap houses to be had in sixth and tenth wards, so anyone who is completely priced out of Lawrenceville is pretty broke. Also, there is little on the market in the Ville right now. There are still plenty of shabby-looking places in ninth ward, which will be had for a good deal eventually.

[selltheburgh]

Originally Posted by Hopes

I'm not saying I know more about it now. I know more about the history. I responded to a post someone made about the history---saying it had never gentrified, that it has always been blighted with mansions turned into apartment buildings. I know about the history because the families of my husband and my friends were from Highland Park and East Liberty prior to moving to the suburbs. It was not always like it is now. It was not always rentals and houses turned into multi units. Highland Park might be a nice neighborhood, but it is not anything like it was in the past.

Gentrification is a stupid word. These days everybody wants to be called middle class, whether they make 30k or 200k. Even if the mansions in Highland Park are turned into multi-units, would the neighborhood be considered "gentrified' if the rents were $1,000 for a 1 bedroom? Brooklyn is gentrified as ***** and nearly nobody owns a house and most buildings are split into apartments - many of the brownstones are 4 apartments with the basement being the "garden unit."

Also, a lot of those big houses were turned into multi-units in the 50's through the 80's. Now the values as duplexes don't make enough sense versus keeping them or turning them back into single family homes. The value as a SFH majorly outweighs a duplex these days in these neighborhoods.

BTW - a Victorian house that I own in East Lib that is split into 3 apartments was once a slum rental and now has a doctor, a professor and a sous chef leasing it. Is that gentrified? Or is that just stable? I had a house history done on it and it has been a rental property off and on since the 1800's. Meanwhile the block was mostly Jewish professionals for many decades. It was the home to an immigrant Jewish merchant for almost 50 years and they operated a store in the back yard as well as rented an apartment in the house.

My former house in Highland Park had 3 units in the 1950's. Possibly before then.

My Single family house in East Liberty has records showing that it had been split into apartments in the 30's.

I think the depression had a lot to do with the big houses being split up.

Yes, things are different now than they were in the roaring 20's.

[sparrowmint]

Originally Posted by selltheburgh

Gentrification is a stupid word. These days everybody wants to be called middle class, whether they make 30k or 200k. Even if the mansions in Highland Park are turned into multi-units, would the neighborhood be considered "gentrified' if the rents were $1,000 for a 1 bedroom? Brooklyn is gentrified as ***** and nearly nobody owns a house and most buildings are split into apartments - many of the brownstones are 4 apartments with the basement being the "garden unit."

How is it a stupid word? It has a specific meaning, lower income folks being pushed out by higher income folks because the cost of housing rises due to them moving in. If the rents in an area that were previously affordable to low income people become unaffordable due to higher income people moving in... then yes, that's gentrification. Gentrification isn't a synonym for "fantastic area," though some might misuse it in that way.

Gentrification - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

gen·tri·fi·ca·tion [jen-truh-fi-key-shuhn] Show IPA
noun
1.
the buying and renovation of houses and stores in deteriorated urban neighborhoods by upper- or middle-income families or individuals, thus improving property values but often displacing low-income families and small businesses.