Civic Arena Site (Duquesne, Homestead: sales, credit check, how much)

[I_Like_Spam]

Originally Posted by eschaton

When it comes down to it, the only salient questions here are if the current community in the Hill District deserves reparations for what was was done, and you can still call the former Arena site part of the Hill District. If the answer to both is yes, they should have additional housing units. If the answer to the first is yes, but the second is no, they deserve a share of the proceeds of development. If the answer to both is no then they don't. Black people are getting pretty used to hearing we aren't responsible for their forefathers getting screwed I suppose. Don't believe it ever makes it any easier however.

The Civic Arena site isn't the only major low-income residential neighborhood razed for major projects, and not the only one which was subsequently abandoned to be redeveloped again.


Should low income housing units have been added to the Homestead Waterfront project? Much of those parcels were the Homestead "ward" which were taken for expansion of the Homestead Works at the start of WWII. Similarly, should low-income housing units been added to the South Side Works residential mix? South Side was traditionally a low income community, and J&L's expansion in 1950 took out a whole sector of the neighborhood around S. 30th St.


My own view is that neighborhoods change, and no group has a permanent hold on any piece of real estate. If the Civic Arena had not been built, town might still have encroached on the area. If not downtown office buildings, Duquesne U. or other nearby institutions might have.

The riots after the death of MLK might have affected the area very adversely, or maybe not so much.

Thinking that everything would have remained basically the same if the Arena hadn't been built is an error. "Wylie Avenue Days" were coming to an end sooner rather than later even without the igloo.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by I_Like_Spam

The Civic Arena site isn't the only major low-income residential neighborhood razed for major projects, and not the only one which was subsequently abandoned to be redeveloped again.

Should low income housing units have been added to the Homestead Waterfront project? Much of those parcels were the Homestead "ward" which were taken for expansion of the Homestead Works at the start of WWII. Similarly, should low-income housing units been added to the South Side Works residential mix? South Side was traditionally a low income community, and J&L's expansion in 1950 took out a whole sector of the neighborhood around S. 30th St.

My own view is that neighborhoods change, and no group has a permanent hold on any piece of real estate. If the Civic Arena had not been built, town might still have encroached on the area. If not downtown office buildings, Duquesne U. or other nearby institutions might have.

The riots after the death of MLK might have affected the area very adversely, or maybe not so much.

Thinking that everything would have remained basically the same if the Arena hadn't been built is an error. "Wylie Avenue Days" were coming to an end sooner rather than later even without the igloo.

Your viewpoint is perfectly defensible. My point was to SCR's that this isn't about "gimme gimme housing units." This is about reparations against a perceived historic injustice. You can argue against said reparations, but you have to do it with the sensitivity of knowing that Civic Arena development is going to be looked at in a fundamentally different way (in part for reasons of historic mythos) than anywhere else in the city.

[Gee Whiz]

Originally Posted by I_Like_Spam

The Civic Arena site isn't the only major low-income residential neighborhood razed for major projects, and not the only one which was subsequently abandoned to be redeveloped again.


Should low income housing units have been added to the Homestead Waterfront project? Much of those parcels were the Homestead "ward" which were taken for expansion of the Homestead Works at the start of WWII. Similarly, should low-income housing units been added to the South Side Works residential mix? South Side was traditionally a low income community, and J&L's expansion in 1950 took out a whole sector of the neighborhood around S. 30th St.


My own view is that neighborhoods change, and no group has a permanent hold on any piece of real estate. If the Civic Arena had not been built, town might still have encroached on the area. If not downtown office buildings, Duquesne U. or other nearby institutions might have.

The riots after the death of MLK might have affected the area very adversely, or maybe not so much.

Thinking that everything would have remained basically the same if the Arena hadn't been built is an error. "Wylie Avenue Days" were coming to an end sooner rather than later even without the igloo.

Right. It is not like we are going back five or ten years or even twenty years since these residents were displaced. The Civic Arena opened in 1961. We are talking 55-60 years! Heck, while were at it, why don't we go back 100 years and try to dictate the income levels of who should be able to live on valuable property based on what ethnicities used to live there? I have to agree that Pittsburgh needs more affordable apartments. That is why I was on board with Hill District leaders initially. However, it should not be based on race. That is where I disagree.

[stburr91]

I think that the only thing that the Penguins should be required to do, is to setup a reparation fund. This way the public can open up their own wallets, and offer reparations if they feel it's the right thing to do.

[wpipkins2]

The Crawford Square development faced the same challenges. Thirty percent of the apartments in that development are for people who fall below the median. The rent is adjusted based on income. The requirements are not based on race. The requirements are based on income. Crawford Square has a nice mix of residents from all income levels and is a success story. The Civic Arena site is owned by the public and should benefit all. Neighborhood groups often dictate large development projects in their back yards. Development plans are often revised in order to address community concerns. I think its an issue here because the neighborhood is poor and black.

[pman]

its an issue because they are asking for excessive handouts that have to be paid for by future residents or taxpayer grants. there is already subsidized housing in the hill. all accounts ive read are that peopke were moved to manchester and east liberty as well. is it about reparations? no. its about getting mine. look at the complaints. residents cant afford the new homes. income is the problem not the lack of subsidized units.

[wpipkins2]

Originally Posted by pman

its an issue because they are asking for excessive handouts that have to be paid for by future residents or taxpayer grants. there is already subsidized housing in the hill. all accounts ive read are that peopke were moved to manchester and east liberty as well. is it about reparations? no. its about getting mine. look at the complaints. residents cant afford the new homes. income is the problem not the lack of subsidized units.

The Penguins knew of and signed off on the communitee benefits package.Affordable housing is not a handout. There is big difference between affordable and subsidized housing.

[Gee Whiz]

Originally Posted by wpipkins2

The Crawford Square development faced the same challenges. Thirty percent of the apartments in that development are for people who fall below the median. The rent is adjusted based on income. The requirements are not based on race. The requirements are based on income. Crawford Square has a nice mix of residents from all income levels and is a success story. The Civic Arena site is owned by the public and should benefit all. Neighborhood groups often dictate large development projects in their back yards. Development plans are often revised in order to address community concerns. I think its an issue here because the neighborhood is poor and black.

Even though it was pretty much implied that Hill district leaders where referring to African-Americans when they insisted on affordable units, I am disappointed that Carl Redwood had to bring this to the forefront. I agree with the affordable part, but I am sure that there are other ethnicities who would like to live on this coveted real estate adjacent to Downtown that may not make a ton of money. Whatever affordable units are eventually developed should be open to anybody that goes through the application process and is on a first come first serve basis. There should be no preferential treatment. Those who have the money, pass the credit check, and are prudent about applying in a prompt manner should get to live there, be it high priced or affordable.

[wpipkins2]

The Penguins got the land for well below its value. The tax payers already lost.

[wpipkins2]

Originally Posted by Gee Whiz

Even though it was pretty much implied that Hill district leaders where referring to African-Americans when they insisted on affordable units, I am disappointed that Carl Redwood had to bring this to the forefront. I agree with the affordable part, but I am sure that there are other ethnicities who would like to live on this coveted real estate adjacent to Downtown that may not make a ton of money. Whatever affordable units are eventually developed should be open to anybody that goes through the application process and is on a first come first serve basis. There should be no preferential treatment. Those who have the money, pass the credit check, and are prudent about applying in a prompt manner should get to live there, be it high priced or affordable.

All races and incomes are represented in Crawford Square. Color is not an issue. I would take Redwoods comments with a grain of salt.