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A lot of weight of the causation is being placed on out of wedlock births. Yet, society is ignoring that white out of wedlock births have riser faster than black out of wedlock births the last 50 years. Fifty years ago the black out of wedlock birth rate for blacks was around 9% compared to about 2% for whites. That means that the OOWL rate for blacks was over 4 times the rate of whites. Today the black rate is 70% and the white rate is 26%. That means the black rate of OOWL births went from being over 4 times the rate of whites to less than 3 times the rate of whites, which means that the white rate is climbing faster than the black rate, in regards to the secular trend.
In light of that, if OOWL births is at the root of the socioeconomic crisis in the black community, then one should be able to logically expect that the socioeconomic condition of whites is deteriorating at a faster rate than blacks (but is less in absolute numbers), meaning that socioeconomic gaps between blacks and whites should be deteriorating due to the faster rate of increase in OOWL births over the last 50 years in the white population.
What also needs to be noted is that being born out of wedlock does not mean that the child is “fatherless”. I know of plenty of cases where it does….but I also know of plenty of cases where it does not. I know many black men who cohabitate with their children’s mother….but they are not married. Just because a child is born out of wedlock does not mean that they will NEVER have a father figure in the home. I am certainly not going to belittle the importance of a stable family structure as being superior to an unstable family structure. However, marriage, in and of itself, does not create income or promote proper role models. Two irresponsible and unemployed people living together cannot offer child much more than living with one irresponsible and unemployed person. Instead of having one bad role model…..they will just have two. This is not to suggest that most black people are unemployed and or irresponsible, but rather, I am just refuting the belief that marriage can override the problems of individuals. One individual with a lot of problems + another individual with a lot of problems != (does not equal) a family with less problems. Hence, if you increase the number of marriages in America I doubt that you will see a big drop in any socioeconomic statistics......other than OOWL births.
Or they could stay in school and not have kids until they are in their 20s and married. Just a thought.
I don't know why people believe getting married will somehow improve poverty rates. If I marry an unemployed black man tell me how is that going to improve my income? Black men have high unemployment rates or in prison, or on drugs,so most black women would have to chose between the three. Now,how is that going to alleviate poverty?
Btw,most people finish college at 22. Then you have to establish a career and have financial stability,so 35 would be a good time to have children. Then again,most women in their 30's have a hard time finding mates plus the clock is ticking. Can't win either way.
Most jobs now reauire a masters,so most finish college at 26. A bachelors mean nothing these days
There really isn't a "Black community."
There are a group of Americans,in differing economic and social strata that all happen to be Black.
Some are doing VERY poorly at this point.
Most are not.
Since poor White Americans outnumber all Black Americans in total,why aren't we "treated" to articles complaining about the joblessness and incarceration rates in their "community?"
You know, there are major problems in the underclass black community that is effecting all of us. Thugs, drug dealing, gangs etc, are over flowing into the good communities. Funny thing is, blacks who have found their way out and made a success of their life, have turned a blind eye and offer no real solutions or help. Oh but when anyone criticizes them for not trying to do something for themselves or taking Uncle Sam for a free ride, they stand up and defend and make excuses, Well how long ya gonna make excuses?
As I am middle class,I don't get any more respect from white people,if anything I get less respect. On my job it seems some white nurses dont think I should be a nurse and their boss but rather the nurses aide and that I'm not smart enough and I must be there because of Aa. At least a person on welfare doesn't have to come out and deal with racism.
How can whites want blacks to be lifted out of poverty but then when they try to work with them and be their neighboors they don't want them there? Both things aren't possible.you either let them continue to receive gov benefits and live in other places far from you or take away the gov benefits, then when they want to work in the same place as you and live near you,there won't be any complaint,because that's what you all want right?
A lot of weight of the causation is being placed on out of wedlock births. Yet, society is ignoring that white out of wedlock births have riser faster than black out of wedlock births the last 50 years. Fifty years ago the black out of wedlock birth rate for blacks was around 9% compared to about 2% for whites. That means that the OOWL rate for blacks was over 4 times the rate of whites. Today the black rate is 70% and the white rate is 26%. That means the black rate of OOWL births went from being over 4 times the rate of whites to less than 3 times the rate of whites, which means that the white rate is climbing faster than the black rate, in regards to the secular trend.
What that tells me is that a significant portion of society have become increasingly irresponsible, and that these increases are reflective of the social engineering that has occurred, creating dependency on the welfare state, as well as promoting the moral decline we see in today's world where "traditional family values" are somehow viewed as a dirty word, and a threat to the "progressive" agendas promoting homosexuality, abortion on demand and feminism. And, the numbers might even be worse than that if one were to account for the astronomical annual abortion numbers.
But, the 70% figure is NO LESS SHOCKING because of the 26% figure. Both are signs of increasing societal decay, and a red alert emergency in the black community with a majority of 70% ... compared to 26%.
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Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
In light of that, if OOWL births is at the root of the socioeconomic crisis in the black community, then one should be able to logically expect that the socioeconomic condition of whites is deteriorating at a faster rate than blacks (but is less in absolute numbers), meaning that socioeconomic gaps between blacks and whites should be deteriorating due to the faster rate of increase in OOWL births over the last 50 years in the white population.
And given the RECORD number of people receiving food stamps today would indicate that indeed there is a socioeconomic crisis at hand. And it is a fact that whites make up the largest segment of the population living at or under the poverty line. Of course this isn't newsworthy, as it is much more popular to suggest that this is strictly a minority issue, with it's accompanying theory of systemic racism as it's root cause. All the poverty stricken whites would dispel such a myth, so it's not mentioned much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
What also needs to be noted is that being born out of wedlock does not mean that the child is “fatherless”. I know of plenty of cases where it does….but I also know of plenty of cases where it does not. I know many black men who cohabitate with their children’s mother….but they are not married. Just because a child is born out of wedlock does not mean that they will NEVER have a father figure in the home.
I think you're missing the forest for the trees here ... confusing symptom with disease. The OOWL births is a SYMPTOM. The DISEASE is irresponsibility, and that generally carries over to a multitude of other life choices, including how they choose to raise these children. There is a difference between being a father ... and impregnating a woman. So just because baby's daddy shacks up with the mother doesn't make him a good father or role model. So yes ... you're likely to find that both are irresponsible, or they wouldn't be together making babies without being married (not that marriage in and of itself is proof of responsibility or the skills to properly raise children ... It's just one of the signs of it).
The converse of that is personal responsibility, and this is demonstrated by marriage and planned pregnancies between people in a stable relationships, who are employed, and come from similar environments where their parents raised them with a sense of personal responsibility. These types are far better prepared to raise their children with similar values and pass on those values that their children will demonstrate as adults.
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Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
I am certainly not going to belittle the importance of a stable family structure as being superior to an unstable family structure. However, marriage, in and of itself, does not create income or promote proper role models.
Yet, this is precisely what you are doing. Of course there are married couples that are horrible parents, as I'm sure their are unmarried couples who are fine parents. There are no absolutes. Just predictable trends that correspond to behaviors.
The real point is that people who choose to get married before having children do so from a set of traditional values which focuses on personal responsibility, among other things. And they are very likely to instill those same values in their children. They are also more likely to demonstrate personal responsibility in other areas .... work for instance, where being responsible leads to more stable employment. And they are far less likely to be involved in illegal drugs or other illegal activities which places the irresponsible unmarried parents in jeopardy of being incarcerated.
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Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
Two irresponsible and unemployed people living together cannot offer child much more than living with one irresponsible and unemployed person.Instead of having one bad role model…..they will just have two. This is not to suggest that most black people are unemployed and or irresponsible, but rather, I am just refuting the belief that marriage can override the problems of individuals.
Again, it's not the marriage certificate ... it's the demonstration of responsibility that is the key here. And it's not about whether there is a cumulative effect of having two bad role models versus one. It's about the lack of having a good role model ... and irresponsible people generally aren't good role models.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
One individual with a lot of problems + another individual with a lot of problems != (does not equal) a family with less problems. Hence, if you increase the number of marriages in America I doubt that you will see a big drop in any socioeconomic statistics......other than OOWL births.
You're using negative logic here ... instead of positive logic. And, regardless of the claim otherwise, you are trying to refute the value of marriage, however indirectly you approach it.
The issue once again is responsibility, and values. And irresponsible people won't magically become responsible simply by getting married. It is the adoption of a mindset which places VALUE in commitment ... in stable committed relationships PRIOR to having children that is the cure .. not the marriage certificate itself.
It is the ethic of personal responsibility and ACCOUNTABILITY that carries over to all aspects of life that create the environment for a better society overall ... which is why the conservatives have such heartburn with progressive liberals.
I'm a political atheist, and certainly not a religious zealot, with moderate to conservative "libertarian" views. And I see just as much, if not more aggression coming from liberal progressives in their attack on "family values" than any "oppression" coming from the extreme right.
Our entire society reflects a complete absence of common sense, and the ability to judge right from wrong ... and one of the key elements in a selfish and self destructing society is the rejection of the family and the proper care and raising of children. It is a perpetual problem that continues to fuel itself as bad choices beget more bad choices.
But don't expect things to get any better any time soon. Teaching children sex education in kindergarten, homosexuality in 1st grade, and passing out free condoms in 5th grade isn't what I would consider a path toward getting back to traditional family values, or instilling personal responsibility.
Frankly, it is a sign of extreme wickedness and a total lack of common sense. And you reap what you sow.
I don't know why people believe getting married will somehow improve poverty rates. If I marry an unemployed black man tell me how is that going to improve my income? Black men have high unemployment rates or in prison, or on drugs,so most black women would have to chose between the three. Now,how is that going to alleviate poverty?
One choice you seem to have overlooked .... don't sleep with them ... and don't become pregnant by them! Is that so hard to figure? It's called personal responsibility ... if you chose to allow yourself to get involved with, and become pregnant by a drug addict or criminal or someone who cannot support a child .... that's just as much your fault as it is anyone's.
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Originally Posted by jerseygal4u
Btw,most people finish college at 22. Then you have to establish a career and have financial stability,so 35 would be a good time to have children. Then again,most women in their 30's have a hard time finding mates plus the clock is ticking. Can't win either way.
Most jobs now reauire a masters,so most finish college at 26. A bachelors mean nothing these days
Life isn't always fair ... and these days, it's only getting worse. But the bottom line is that people shouldn't be having children if they aren't able to support them and raise them properly.
Back in the old days ... and I know this is such an old fashioned and out of date concept ... but women chose viable mates, and were selective in choosing who they slept with. They didn't bed down with hobos, drug addicts and criminals.
You know ... men have been known to exert great efforts to get a mate .... maybe these men might clean up their acts if the women were to somply tell them NO ... not till you have a real job and quit selling and taking heroin?
It's called self respect, and personal responsibility.
Today, everyone wants to blame somebody else for their personal troubles, when the person responsible is much more likely to be themselves.
You know what's hilarious to me is that threads like this pop up so we can talk about how horrible black people are. I mentioned on another thread that I was a group of several black organizational ones that focus on improving literacy in test scores for black students and another that helps low-income black students get placed with jobs (both paid and volunteer) that they otherwise wouldn't have access to and I was called a racist. Poster said they couldn't understand the motivation for joining an organization that was specifically black....
I created a thread months and months ago voicing my concerns for lack of entrepreneurship in the black community and was told that I need to get over segregation and worry about the world and not the so-called black community. And then I was called racist....
...so I'm at a loss here. Many of us recognize there is a problem but how we can we fix it if by trying to help each other, we are being racist?
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No offense but the only people I know who seem to think those groups have anything to do with black leadership are white people or the media.
Do you have any statistics to back up your claim that "blacks who have found their way out....have turned a blind eye and offer no real solutions or help"? That's a pretty broad generalization and I'd like to see some proof to back it up. Or is it just a very simplistic opinon, which on its face, seems to be very biased?
btw, who won?
From what I read on this forum, I never hear anyone(blacks) saying they volunteer there time to help the underclass black people improve their quality of life. Seems like all I hear is they are that way because of 300yrs of oppression, but no solutions.
A lot of weight of the causation is being placed on out of wedlock births. Yet, society is ignoring that white out of wedlock births have riser faster than black out of wedlock births the last 50 years. Fifty years ago the black out of wedlock birth rate for blacks was around 9% compared to about 2% for whites. That means that the OOWL rate for blacks was over 4 times the rate of whites. Today the black rate is 70% and the white rate is 26%. That means the black rate of OOWL births went from being over 4 times the rate of whites to less than 3 times the rate of whites, which means that the white rate is climbing faster than the black rate, in regards to the secular trend.
The reason for this is that some lower class whites are starting to assimilate ghetto culture as pushed by the media.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
In light of that, if OOWL births is at the root of the socioeconomic crisis in the black community, then one should be able to logically expect that the socioeconomic condition of whites is deteriorating at a faster rate than blacks (but is less in absolute numbers), meaning that socioeconomic gaps between blacks and whites should be deteriorating due to the faster rate of increase in OOWL births over the last 50 years in the white population.
Yes, unfortunately dumb whites are becoming blacker all the time. A trend, again, that I think is pushed in popular media. What "OOWL" births are, is just one symptom of the decay that black male culture represents.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
What also needs to be noted is that being born out of wedlock does not mean that the child is “fatherless”. I know of plenty of cases where it does….but I also know of plenty of cases where it does not. I know many black men who cohabitate with their children’s mother….but they are not married. Just because a child is born out of wedlock does not mean that they will NEVER have a father figure in the home.
True, but in practical reality, what percentage of OOWL children have a "cohabitating" father. Don't know if it's reality or not, but I've read of some ghetto "game" called "Jewels in da crown", where apparently, black men compete to see who can have the most illegitimate childrens, i.e. "Jewels in da crown".
I was born out of wedlock, but my old man came home from work every day. No one could tell they weren't married. But times were different then, and I think my case was a rarity. They did get married some years later. Though have to admit, at one point where they were separated, heck I may have been happier without the extra authority figure around. But then I wasn't a problem kid either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
I am certainly not going to belittle the importance of a stable family structure as being superior to an unstable family structure. However, marriage, in and of itself, does not create income or promote proper role models. Two irresponsible and unemployed people living together cannot offer child much more than living with one irresponsible and unemployed person. Instead of having one bad role model…..they will just have two.
Agreed. As noted above however, OOWL birth is just a symptom. No one would mention it if, for example, blacks had a tradition of not marrying but say raising kids as a community, or actually cohabitating as you mention. But the facts on the ground seem to suggest it isn't so. To use your own logic, clearly it would seem that black role models do a poor job of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
This is not to suggest that most black people are unemployed and or irresponsible, but rather, I am just refuting the belief that marriage can override the problems of individuals. One individual with a lot of problems + another individual with a lot of problems != (does not equal) a family with less problems. Hence, if you increase the number of marriages in America I doubt that you will see a big drop in any socioeconomic statistics......other than OOWL births.
I agree, marriage does not equal ideal role models. However, anecdotally it has seemed that people who marry do make better role models, if for the reason perhaps, that marriage indicates some sense of responsibility. But I have no numbers to back that assertion up with.
Bottom line is that African American culture is problematic and AA media role models often promote an outlaw cultural image, both undoubtedly impact the kids in a somewhat self sustaining cycle.
With or without marriage the AA culture needs to critcally examine itself (as do most cultures in the world today, LOL!) and start changing for the better.
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