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Old 09-09-2010, 01:34 PM
 
3,566 posts, read 3,738,988 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggy001 View Post
The embargo is a glorious failure. The way to subvert Cuba is with capitalism and a consumer society. Once ordinary Cubans taste those delights, communism is finished there. The embargo, by depriving them of capitalism, has prolonged communism there by at least 20 years.
I agree that the way to change Cuba is through capitalism. But how do you propose to do that while communism prevails? Where are the captialists to come from? Are you suggesting that the U.S. embargo is preventing capitalism from breaking out in Cuba? Aren't there plenty of capitalists in countries other than the U.S.? Why aren't they investing in that God-forsaken hellhole? It's because capitalists remember the expropriation of private property by Castro when he came to power. Who wants to put their investment at risk again?

As far as consumerism, the average wage in Cuba is $20.00 per month. The only people in Cuba who can afford imported goods are the communist party elite. Bottom line: things won't improve in Cuba until the Castro's are gone--embargo or no embargo.
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Old 09-09-2010, 01:39 PM
 
3,566 posts, read 3,738,988 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggy001 View Post
They should have collapsed at the same time as the Soviet Union. At a time when western money poured into the old SU and into eastern Europe making a resurgence of communism impossible, we did not do the same for Cuba. The boycott has given them an extra 20 years of communism.
Money did not pour into Cuba after the fall of Soviet communism because it persisted in Cuba. As noted earlier, when communism finally collapses in Cuba the money will pour in and transform that island nation. But not before. You'll notice that countries that do not honor the boycott are not investing in Cuba right now. There's a reason for that.
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Old 09-09-2010, 03:12 PM
 
3,562 posts, read 5,235,694 times
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I think they make over 2 billion in tourism a year. And Americans go there constantly. The thing that I find fascinating is just how badly people want to stick their McDonalds in there.

A transformation is not what the island needs. A strip mall is not what the island needs.

I find it odd that people don't want Cuba to be Cuba, they want the US to take it over and put a shoe store that sells the same $450 shoes that you can get in the US. Maybe they can get a Hooters in there as well.

That is shyte.
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Old 09-10-2010, 07:13 AM
 
13,673 posts, read 20,813,731 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandamonium View Post
I think they make over 2 billion in tourism a year. And Americans go there constantly. The thing that I find fascinating is just how badly people want to stick their McDonalds in there.

A transformation is not what the island needs. A strip mall is not what the island needs.

I find it odd that people don't want Cuba to be Cuba, they want the US to take it over and put a shoe store that sells the same $450 shoes that you can get in the US. Maybe they can get a Hooters in there as well.

That is shyte.
I hear what you are saying. Cuba's destiny is her own.

As for McDonald's, I suspect it will end up there sooner or later. And I cannot be bothered to care for it is a nonissue

No need for Hooters with all those hot Cuban girls.
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Old 09-10-2010, 09:42 AM
 
3,728 posts, read 4,876,639 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandamonium View Post
I think they make over 2 billion in tourism a year. And Americans go there constantly. The thing that I find fascinating is just how badly people want to stick their McDonalds in there.

A transformation is not what the island needs. A strip mall is not what the island needs.

I find it odd that people don't want Cuba to be Cuba, they want the US to take it over and put a shoe store that sells the same $450 shoes that you can get in the US. Maybe they can get a Hooters in there as well.

That is shyte.
How come you are making that sound like a horrible thing? Cuba is a poor, despotic hellhole. It went from being wealthier and more developed than several European nations (Spain comes to mind) to being poor by Latin American standards. Maybe being more like America is what Cuba needs.
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Old 09-10-2010, 09:54 AM
 
7,540 posts, read 11,389,850 times
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I see some people are predicting that countries like China and Vietnam may become models for Cuba's move towards an market economy. But there are other potential models. Two former Soviet countries,Estonia and Poland,may also provide models for Cuba.


Estonia's privatization method:

Privatisation in Estonia



Poland's Privatization method:

http://knowledge.emory.edu/article.cfm?articleid=535
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Old 09-10-2010, 11:42 AM
 
13,673 posts, read 20,813,731 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motion View Post
I see some people are predicting that countries like China and Vietnam may become models for Cuba's move towards an market economy. But there are other potential models. Two former Soviet countries,Estonia and Poland,may also provide models for Cuba.


Estonia's privatization method:

Privatisation in Estonia



Poland's Privatization method:

http://knowledge.emory.edu/article.cfm?articleid=535
It makes sense to look at models that potentially have something in common with your own (i.e. Communist to Free Market).

I also think Ireland would be a good example.
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Old 09-10-2010, 12:41 PM
 
3,562 posts, read 5,235,694 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank_Carbonni View Post
How come you are making that sound like a horrible thing? Cuba is a poor, despotic hellhole. It went from being wealthier and more developed than several European nations (Spain comes to mind) to being poor by Latin American standards. Maybe being more like America is what Cuba needs.
The US is pissed off that it didn't have the ability to annex Cuba outright.

Look, here is where they have been:
http://lanic.utexas.edu/project/asce/pdfs/volume18/pdfs/carrerastimoneda.pdf

Pay attention to the costs to family and society.


Let's start with Batista. Batista was a murdering thug that worked in combination with the mafia and American corporations to exploit the island. Further, what was the magic ingredient? Oil exploration. So, the rich got richer and the poor got poorer. 20,000 dead Cubans in a seven year period under Batista. And it opened up the doorway for the revolution.
This entire sham has been over the ability to exploit Cuba. The US has been throwing a tantrum.

What does Batista, his supporters and the upper elite do? Run to Florida. For which they are finally starting to lose their grip.

The US initially recognized Castro. But what happened?

Here is the deal, Castro was able to eradicate illiteracy, give the people medical care and your not dealing with homelessness. The kids are now computer literate. People from other nations go to medical school there.

After the collapse of the Soviet Union, Cuba starts allowing foreign investors in. In 1997, Cubans were allowed to own their own business'. When it begins to create this two tier system again, they throw out a bunch of middle players. Like those selling medical equipment. Why? Because that road leads to an increase of medical care cost. They only want the major companies in foreign investment in specific areas.

Why? Because they have been down this road before. Cuba does not want to backwards it wants to go forwards and not have their culture exploited. In the end, Cuba might just wind up with a different direction on the same path. Castro will more than likely expound on that comment. Hopefully, in his column and not in a 7 hour speech.

Finally, your stip malls are failing in the United States. Why is it necessary for you to export them to fail elsewhere? The argument has never been one between get rid of capitalism here but the keeping it in check so that it doesn't create the problems that it has.
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Old 09-10-2010, 12:43 PM
 
35,016 posts, read 39,210,040 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motion View Post
The Associated Press: Castro says he was misinterpreted on Cuban economy
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Old 09-10-2010, 12:44 PM
 
3,562 posts, read 5,235,694 times
Reputation: 1861
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moth View Post
I hear what you are saying. Cuba's destiny is her own.

As for McDonald's, I suspect it will end up there sooner or later. And I cannot be bothered to care for it is a nonissue

No need for Hooters with all those hot Cuban girls.
It is a huge issue. And yes, that is the original deal that the US had with Cuba, her destiny is her own.
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