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I appreciate your kind words. I definitely would do as you said and support my child if I were in this scenario. This debate really isn't about me because my personal ethics are higher than a typical "deadbeat". Actually, I did raise my own child 100% of the time for many years and still do 90% of the time (50/50 is my preference for my child's sake, but that's not in my hands so I'm enjoying our 90% together for the time being).
If you will notice my edit you will see why I am so opposed to an easy check off, I know too closely how many men are not responsible like you, and will not hesitate to create and abandon many children, at that time child support wasn't a given, men would easily deny and leave, to the extreme detriment of the child. Unfortunately, today the possible child support payments are the only thing that helps them think twice about using BC. If I hadn't seen so many of those men/scumbags in action, I might feel differently.
I do understand your personal ethics point, and would always agree if there was some way a child weren't involved .
If you will notice my edit you will see why I am so opposed to an easy check off, I know too closely how many men are not responsible like you, and will not hesitate to create and abandon many children, at that time child support wasn't a given, men would easily deny and leave, to the extreme detriment of the child. Unfortunately, today the possible child support payments are the only thing that helps them think twice about using BC. If I hadn't seen so many of those men/scumbags in action, I might feel differently.
Hi detshen,
I pasted your edit below so I could reply:
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Originally Posted by detshen
Part of the reason I see this issue so differently is because I grew up in a low income neighborhood, I was fortunate that I had two parents who had some money, and sent me to parochial school, I came out different than many of the young people around me. I saw so many young pregnancies, boys would lie to many girls promising them the world of love and marriage, having free sex, no bother with BC, so many girls got pregnant, often by the same boy, and the boy would deny it, and move on unless she was able to take him to court, child support wasn't such a given back then. These girls could never afford abortions even if they could admit to being pregnant soon enough, a weird denial of pregnancy was rampant, they swore they didn't know. The poor kids would grow up with nothing, no money, no confidence, many would grow up to repeat the cycle.
So many men would take your option to opt out, and use it to have tons of truly responsibility free sex, just check a box. These aren't middle class women with family support who can still make it out of poverty after pregnancy, their lives are over, sometimes that $60 monthly child support check means the difference between whether the child eats or not. When I read city data I know most on here have never seen that world, and their assumptions about life are so influenced by their middle and upper class upbringing, they don't understand the rest of the world.
I also grew up in a low income neighborhood and saw the same. I did not have two parents, but I was lucky to not have the in and out situation, there was no ties so I didn't feel anything was missing.
I will say, with the current welfare state, you are most likely right. People will not take personal responsibility since there is a government net to catch their bad choices. However, taking the nation a little bit earlier in time before your scenario: women, family, and communities DID enforce and prevent men to widely use the "love em and leave em" behavior. Even with the current child support system, notice the out of wedlock births have only increased, not decreased. In my opinion, that's due to a lack of personal responsibility on both sides.
In regards to scumbags, I don't see any gender being the angel here. Yes there are many deadbeat dads out there and I definitely sympathize with women who opened their hearts to someone they thought was genuine. That being said, women have a higher non-pay rate (by percentage) than men. I've seen women use the family court system to restrict visitation in a means to maximize support payments, or as a means to "get back at the man", or move the kids out of state from a good father so she could be with her new guy. I sympathize with those fathers as much as I sympathize with women who were fooled. Some men behave badly by not paying, and some women behave badly by using the children as a weapon. In this category it's a wash to me.
If anything, the scumbag factor is a huge example of why prostitution should be legal. It would benefit women since the scumbags wouldn't lie for sex and plenty of them would remove themselves out of the dating market since they can pay for it.
I don't see our society returning to past days where bad behavior was socially enforced, and I don't see the current single mother birthing trend to reverse either. That is why I'd much rather go with my solution to reform welfare to a strictly no check, work only, job training, temp child care subsidized program, while equalizing pre-birth options and allowing people to enforce their own behavior.
I also grew up in a low income neighborhood and saw the same. I did not have two parents, but I was lucky to not have the in and out situation, there was no ties so I didn't feel anything was missing.
I will say, with the current welfare state, you are most likely right. People will not take personal responsibility since there is a government net to catch their bad choices. However, taking the nation a little bit earlier in time before your scenario: women, family, and communities DID enforce and prevent men to widely use the "love em and leave em" behavior. Even with the current child support system, notice the out of wedlock births have only increased, not decreased. In my opinion, that's due to a lack of personal responsibility on both sides.
In regards to scumbags, I don't see any gender being the angel here. Yes there are many deadbeat dads out there. Also, women have a higher non-pay rate (by percentage) than men. I've seen women use the family court system to restrict visitation in a means to maximize support payments, or as a means to "get back at the man", or move the kids out of state from a good father so she could be with her new guy. Some men behave badly by not paying, and some women behave badly by using the children as a weapon. In this category it's a wash to me.
If anything, the scumbag factor is a huge example of why prostitution should be legal. It would benefit women since the scumbags wouldn't lie for sex and would be taken out of the dating market.
I don't see our society returning to past days where bad behavior was socially enforced, and I don't see the current birthing trend to reverse either. That is why I'd much rather go with my solution to reform welfare to a strictly no check, work only, job training, temp child care subsidized program, while equalizing options and allowing people to enforce their own behavior.
To be very clear, I was not saying in any way, shape, or form that men are scumbags, I would never say that, nor do I think that. My life is full of wonderful, responsible men that I love and trust.
The particular men I spoke of were scumbags, they left pregnant teenage girls to raise children alone after telling them stories of love, and promising to stick around, and pushing for BC free sex. It would often come out later that they were doing this with a number of girls, usually more than 1 would end up pregnant. That's a scumbag! The girls raised the kids the best they could, usually with no help from the boy so my sympathies are with them.
I know there are women who use children against men, that disgusts me and I would call them scumbags also, but I have only heard stories of those women, I have never met one. I could never be friends with someone like that, I put the care of children above all petty issues, and could never respect someone who did that. Children need their fathers and should not be denied by vindictive women.
I think BC is much more responsible for the loosening of the social mores than abortions, most women do not choose abortion, of all the women I know personally who accidently got pregnant, not one chose abortion even if they were too poor to raise a child. Usually they couldn't afford an abortion even if they could bring themselves to do it which most couldn't. An abortion is not responsibility free sex, it's a huge thing that no woman ever wants to do, it's nothing like checking a box with a notary. I saw my friends sister a couple days after she had a an abortion, she was so SICK, she looked like she was dying, and she was in horrible pain. Nothing a man could do would equal that, unless we physically maim him. I believe in the right to privacy, so abortion should always be legal, but I don't believe anyone who says it's easy, or not a devastating experience for a woman.
I'd like to see free, or very affordable BC available to everyone of every age. That will prevent abortions and child support. If the pill were affordable, and easily available, many of the girls I knew wouldn't have gotten pregnant, but the Dr. visits and monthly RX was too much money for most of my friends when we were young, we didn't have credit cards.
I just realized we are on the abortion thread. I wonder if the Mod should move these posts into the Men's choice thread. Anyone who wishes to respond should probably go there.
I was not saying in any way, shape, or form that men are scumbags, I would never say that, nor do I think that. My life is full of wonderful responsible men.
The particular men I spoke of were scumbags, they left pregnant teenage girls to raise children alone after telling them stories of love, and promising to stick around, and pushing for BC free sex. It would often come out later that they were doing this with a number of girls, usually more than 1 would end up pregnant. That's a scumbag!
I know there are women who use children against men, that disgusts me and I would call them scumbags also, but I have only heard stories of those women, I have never met one.
I think BC is much more responsible for the loosening of the social mores than abortions, most women do not choose abortion, of all the women I know personally who accidently got pregnant, not one chose abortion even if they were too poor to raise a child. Usually they couldn't afford an abortion even if they could bring themselves to do it which most couldn't. An abortion is not responsibility free sex, it's a huge thing that no woman ever wants to do, it's nothing like checking a box with a notary. I saw my friends sister a couple days after she had a an abortion, she was so SICK, she looked like she was dying, and she was in horrible pain. Nothing a man could do would equal that, unless we physically maim him.
Hi detshen,
I'm sorry to hear about your friend's sister, I hope she doesn't have any long term effects from this.
I didn't think you were generalizing men. I was simply giving my opinion that both sides display bad behavior. I understand the personalized aspect to your opinion and I'm fine with that. The only reason mine is different from yours is because I separate my personal opinion and try to look at things in a purely academic manner.
I agree with you on birth control loosening social mores and that it's the main contributor to all this. I was only saying that abortion, welfare, and child support are also supporting negative contributors in different aspects of this subject, depending on if one wants to keep a child or not and how they use these "tools".
Growing up where I did, I can tick off a sizable list of names of women who did use abortion as birth control and thought nothing of it. I was repulsed by it and said so when I heard them say so. I know a lot of women can't imagine women feeling this way, but in these women's statements and actions it was a reality. I know that's not all women, probably not even most, just saying there can be two extremes, and not every woman is struggling over choosing to abort.
Overall, I know men can never experience what women can. I also realize that my opinion is alone in this debate. I had exited the conversation last week because of this, just to keep the threads moving. I only started posted again because someone responded to an old post of mine. I don't really have any additional points to raise unless you or any posters respond to me. Until then, I'll let everything I said stand on it's own.
Once again, I appreciate your kind words a few posts ago, and look forward to debating you in another thread (or this one if someone replies to me again and I am 'forced' to reply to them).
Actually, my argument is not really about child support.
Um, yes it is and we'll see how and why below.
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It's primarily about giving both genders a method to cut all ties pre-birth. A woman already can cut all ties through abortion, and I want to extend that option to men. Child support is an end stage, not the main focus on what I'm debating here. I only went down the financial path since you brought it up, but I see what you really meant in the next paragraph and will respond below.
You have that option; across the board mandatory vasectomies for all males.
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Mandatory parenthood DOES exist, for men. If a man wants to sign over his parental rights, he cannot do so without the approval of the woman and a judge. That by default makes it mandatory for him from conception onward since he does not have a unilateral option.
He is not obligated by law to parent a child-emotional and spiritual guidance, academic teaching, cultural involvement, 1:1 time investments, all and all having a relationship. He only has to pay a bill. Something he does for his iphone and I wouldn't say having an iphone is synonymous with being a parent or engaging in parenthood. Although, I'm not a lawyer.
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First I'll say that I'm truly sorry you had body issues due to this. I don't like to see anyone suffer. I prefer not to personalize this debate since it's not personal for me and I'm debating legal options, not personal scenarios, even though I may sympathize with it. I'm all academic here, and I'm hoping we can continue from that standpoint.
It doesn't matter. The point is that there's an inequality here. Equality was your argument earlier. I'm saying that before any of these perceived inequalities on the part of men are dealt with, it's only fair that the inequalities women have been facing throughout history be contended with first. Again, how do you plan to contend with these inequalities? eta: to be clear, the you being general you.
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I'm not sure if the "you" and "you guys" in your paragraph above included me, but to clarify, I would never personally be in this situation. But hypothetically if I were, I would not ask the woman to get an abortion, nor would I opt out. I would raise my child with the mother, or 50/50 if we weren't together anymore, or 100% if she decided she wanted to give birth but didn't want to help raise the child. I would never ask for child support either. And if she decided to get an abortion instead, I would just suck it up since it's her body and I don't believe in forced pregnancies (or forced abortions).
Then I don't see what the argument is here. I agree with your approach 100%.
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In regards to compensating women, I didn't want to go down the road of choice, but I have to in order to properly respond. If a woman chooses to have sex, she has to weigh those consequences of her choice. But I'm not going to be a pro-lifer and say she should not have the ability to have an abortion because of her choice. All I am saying is if we are going to give women an extra choice after conception, give men an extra choice as well. Are you using the physical consequences as an OK for women being able to have one extra option than men have? I'm not taking any rights away from women with my solution, it only extends rights to men.
Those are not extra choices. They are only extra consequences, extra consequences for women, not men. Painful one's at that. That's where many of you get lost. It's understandable I guess, tho, that's not an argument.
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Please try to take the personal out of this conversation. None of this has anything to do with my personal wants or needs since I would never be in this situation. I'm not clear if you're using the "general you" in this paragraph since I am a guy when you say "you guys", but my academic opinion has nothing to do with what I would actually follow through with in real life, as I outlined above.
All the same, it's general you, general you guys. It's just easier speak.
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In regards to taxes, I don't mind them being raised, but I also don't mind if people say "suck it up" if someone decides to have a child and can't support it. Either is fine with me, even though in another thread I outlined a detailed plan on how to help potential single mothers in my solution.
In regards to mandatory vasectomies in exchange for opting out, that's not ideologically equal unless you also require women to do some similar form of sterilization in exchange for opting out through abortion.
Abortion and birth are not ideologically equal. What's so difficult to understand about this? It's already unequal.
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As of today, men have zero choices of opting out. I'm simply looking to add one to the mix. If you have a more feasible solution than the one I'm proposing, I'm interested in hearing it. My goal here is solutions, not winning a debate.
I'm tired of women having to pay for it. Gosh, women have to do everything. Men can opt out by not having sex, by getting the gnads snipped, by engaging other men, etc. Those are all feasible solutions and yet they are always ignored.
I'll finish up with one/two questions. What solutions do you have that do not include women doing the work in any way? Right now, ALL of the responsibilities lay with women. When are the men going to do anything?
Growing up where I did, I can tick off a sizable list of names of women who did use abortion as birth control and thought nothing of it. I was repulsed by it and said so when I heard them say so. I know a lot of women can't imagine women feeling this way, but in these women's statements and actions it was a reality. I know that's not all women, probably not even most, just saying there can be two extremes, and not every woman is struggling over choosing to abort.
Wow, I have a big problem with that behavior, other than my friends sister, and one former friend who told me that her pro-life boyfriend demanded she have an abortion of the child she wanted, or he would leave her (surprise surprise, he left her right after the procedure,) I don't know any women who have had abortions, but I know a lot who became pregnant and kept their babies. When I was a teen we didn't have access to public health options, the girls couldn't afford abortions on their own even if they wanted them, I imagine it's still a struggle for many young women. I guess that just goes to show that we all have different experiences that affect our opinions on issues.
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