New Miss USA :"evolution should be taught in public schools." (Alabama, high school)
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1. The universe is not eternal. You can know this because of the 2nd law of thermodynics, as well as the fact that you cannot pass an infinite amount of time. If the universe was eternal, that would have had to take place to get to now.
2. Since the universe had a beginning, we must conclude it was caused by something. You could argue that whatever caused the universe to exist was in turn caused by something prior, but at some point you must have an ultimate beginning cause that was not caused by another cause. To suggest otherwise is to suggest an infinite regression of causes. That's impossible because without a first cause none of the rest would exist.
3. This "cause" of the universe is a creator. This is logically deduced.
Can you give us a better explanation?
We don't know whether the universe (or multi-verse) is eternal or not. Such premise is fundamental to science. One could use evidence from information, and present it logically as a theory while being open for debating other possibilities.
What is really funny about your arguments (but you're not alone) is that you try hard to dismiss scientific theories based on the (faulty) premise of lacking observable data, to present religious beliefs as being real. Do you not see that?
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Originally Posted by Calvinist
1- As I said, I honestly don't care to get involved in the parsing of words.
2- I think origin comes before evolution.
3- It was created.
1- You should care. Unless you can't differentiate between a story and a theory (see the second para above for why I asked).
2- So? Do you not want to discuss evolution on its own?
3- We don't know that. We can come up with theories, and demonstrations, with greater accuracy, and fundamental to how science works.
As I said, I honestly don't care to get involved in the parsing of words.
I think origin comes before evolution.
It was created.
Actually, distinguishing between things is not "parsing of words". If people are going to communicate effectively, they have to have a solid understanding of each other, of the meaning of the words.
Origin does come before evolution. So what?
I don't need to grow my own food in order to cook. It's nice and convenient to be able to do so, but if Chef Emeril is teaching me how to cook a steak, he's not going to take me out to the barn first to butcher the cow.
If in every discussion about evolution, someone wants to talk about origin, then that's what they are doing. Evolution theory does not address the origin of life, so challenging evolution theory because it does not address the origin of life is akin to challenging a chef that he cannot cook a steak if he didn't butcher the cow.
And the choice between an eternal universe or an eternal creator is a moot argument. Both arguments are that something has always existed, will always exist. The arguments about which always existed are not about logic or proof, they are simply about personal preference.
I think it's possible for a smart person to critically evaluate evolution, and conclude that there is a lot we don't understand, which is why the science is evolving, and that we are acquiring a greater understanding all the time of how evolution works.
But I don't think a smart person would reject evolution as a fairy tale.
That same smart person could critically evaluate the religious dogma of creation, and conclude that there is a lot we don't understand. But the religious dogma of creationism isn't evolving, we don't acquire a greater understanding of creationsim, because it IS religious dogma, a matter of faith, not of matter of enquiry.
I would think then that a smart person would simply have to determine if he or she were willing to take the leap of faith required by creationism or not. It would not be a matter of intelligence, but a combination of factors. Whether the person's experiences when engaging in similar leaps of faith had been positive, the kind of upbringing the person had, the kind of relationships they enjoyed.
Religion has nothing to do with critical thinking skills. One chooses to believe whatever they believe, in a god or in nothing or in a pantheon of gods, which god or goddess, and to what degree they should believe, because somehow that particular path resonates with them. If a religion adds to your life, then that is a gift to be celebrated. If not having a religion adds to your life, that is also a gift. Each path has its advantages and disadvantages. But the path one chooses is really more visceral than rational, I think. And people should really learn to be tolerant of the different choices that different people make.
I have found rational thought and faith to be complementary.
Order without a cause for the order requires me to accept far too much. I'll require a better expaination than it just is.
We don't know whether the universe (or multi-verse) is eternal or not.
Sure we do. 2nd law of thermodynics demonstrates the universe is not eternal.
As for multiverse? What started it all? What created the big envelope that contains all the universes?
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Such premise is fundamental to science. One could use evidence from information, and present it logically as a theory while being open for debating other possibilities.
What is really funny about your arguments (but you're not alone) is that you try hard to dismiss scientific theories based on the (faulty) premise of lacking observable data, to present religious beliefs as being real. Do you not see that?
And you dismiss "religious" theories simply because they are religious, regardless of the evidence. Do you not see that?
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1- You should care. Unless you can't differentiate between a story and a theory (see the second para above for why I asked).
2- So? Do you not want to discuss evolution on its own?
I'd be happy to, but in the context I believe I was referring to someone that was trying to confuse the 2
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3- We don't know that. We can come up with theories, and demonstrations, with greater accuracy, and fundamental to how science works.
Explain it then. Exactly how did the universe get here without a creator?
Oh, good. I wonder why you felt compelled to make the point in thread about evolution, but...
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I've repeatedly pointed that out to the people this board that science does not have a legitimate answer for the origin of life, or the universe.
And "God did it" is a legitimate answer? It explains nothing.
For the origin of life, there are some pretty good hypotheses out there. We'll probably never know for sure. That's OK. We also don't know what Caesar ate for breakfast before crossing Rubicon - we're not even sure which river the Rubicon actually was - but we're still pretty sure the Great Roman Civil War happened.
The origin of the universe is a more interesting problem, of course. In classical metaphysics, the Universe is per definition closed. We can't observe outside it. Making "origin" almost a meaningless phrase.
If you want to postulate a Creator getting the ball rolling, well - feel free. It's unprovable and unfalsifiable, of course, but it can make for interesting speculation.
(Personally, I like the version espoused by the Listening Monks in Terry Pratchett's Soul Music - after spending decades listening to uncover what the Creator said when making the universe, they hear foot-tapping and a voice saying ""One, two, ONE, two, three, four...")
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