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"Wolf Blitzer asks Perry if separation of church and state means anything to him. Perry responds, “Sure, it means that we're supposed to have freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.”"
That is a ridiculously stupid thing to say. It's both. That's why we have TWO religion clauses, and that's what they effin' mean.
People should have freedom to choose any religion or no religion. The government should not use governmental power to force anyone to follow a religion, and should not use taxpayer funds or government property to promote or discourage any religion.
A discussion about "freedom from religion" is trying to muddy the perfectly clear waters as stated above. What does "freedom from religion" even mean? People should be free to choose not to be religious. They should not be forced to pay taxes that go toward religious purposes. They should not be able to stop other people from expressing their religion in non-governmental ways, but no one is really proposing that they should.
From your linked article:
Seems that Ricky Perry and some c-d posters are equally misinformed.
So you're saying the 1st Amendment says:
Mircea shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
I appreciate the vote of confidence, but I am not Congress.
Quote:
Originally Posted by actonbell
I was slammed for saying that religious symbols could not be displayed in the work place.
They can't.
The 1st Amendment does not state:
Your Employer shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
It says Congress..
Congressshall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
Quote:
Originally Posted by rimmerama
Sure, if you say so - but when was the last time an atheist flew a plane into a building to further the cause of heathenism?
Uh, I'll play along.
When was the last time an atheist flew a plane into a building to further the cause of heathenism?
That's not a trick question, is it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert kid
I rightly don't know on that, but I am all to aware of the Church purges in the USSR ...
What purges?
You don't think people in "communist" countries went to church?
They most certainly did.
When I was assigned to US Embassy Mission Bucharesti, I went to church every Sunday. When I was at the US Consulate in [East] Berlin, I attended mass at the Marienkirche (Himmler got married there and Hitler was the Best Man). When I was an observer on Druzba '86 in the Magyar Republic, I noted they had services on Sunday in the field for Magyars and Soviets.
Members of the Communist Party were supposed to declare themselves as atheists and not attend any services, and the vast majority did so, but the ordinary people still went to church every Sunday, and kept the feast days and celebrated the festivals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by actonbell
Profess your faith publicly and if asked don't deny Him.
I'm an atheist, why would I do that?
Deny who, Jesus? Jesus was a blithering idiot who made things up as he went along.
Master, how do I get eternal life?
Jesus: Follow the Commandments. Oh, wait, eat me and drink my blood. No, um, you have to be born again. Uh, I forgot, you have to sell everything you own and give the money to the poor. Wait, a minute, scratch that, don't sell your stuff, just give it away. Never-mind, you have to be like a child. No, I change my mind, you have to be like the wind. Listen to the Wind. Listen to the Owl. Why aren't you at Red Deer Table like Old Man says?
Quote:
Originally Posted by actonbell
There is more to those scriptures than what you are citing.
Matthew 6:5 Whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, because they love to pray while standing in synagogues and on street corners so that people can see them.
Is there some part of "do not be like the hypocrites" that you don't understand?
Matthew 6:6 But whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret.
Which part of "pray to your Father in secret" do you not understand?
It doesn't require prayer to profess your faith, and I don't see where Jesus says "pray in large groups in public to profess your faith."
Of course, Jesus did contradict himself a lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by momonkey
Actually, the US Constitution is a compact between the states in which the federal government, being a creation of the states, is given limited permission under the Constitution to perform specific prescribed duties (see article 1, section 8) on behalf of the states.
I'll buy that. Technically, it would be more correct to say that the Constitution is a contract between the Federal Government and the several States.
Still, it is not a contract between others and I. It [the 1st Amendment] only restricts the powers of Congress, not individuals, and certainly not me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by momonkey
The idea that the federal government should be a part of individual American's daily lives is a Twentieth Century invention inconsistent with the intent of the Founders to create a limited federal government.
Yes, that's because people see things that aren't there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert kid
When I'm called a "kook" because I have the audacity to believe in God, that is when I get steamed.
If you believed in the Great Pumpkin, I'd call you a kook as well.
Freedom from religion is part of freedom of religion.
Just like the freedom to not speak, to be silent, is part of freedom of speech. If you compel someone to express their opinion, against their will, then that is not freedom. Coercion has no place in the definition of freedom.
If you compel someone to practice a religion, the fact that they get to choose which religion does not diminish the aspect of coercion that is present in compelling someone to do anything against their will. For freedom to exist, it must allow people the right to not participate, or it isn't freedom at all.
Freedom from religion is the same as freedom of religion. Though the country was founded on Judeo/Christian principals, the founders also knew well enough to not allow the tyrany of a state sponsored religion. We have the freedom to choose or not choose a religious belief.
Freedom from religion is the same as freedom of religion. Though the country was founded on Judeo/Christian principals, the founders also knew well enough to not allow the tyrany of a state sponsored religion. We have the freedom to choose or not choose a religious belief.
Except that there is no such thing as Judeo-Christian principles.
Would someone who opposes "freedom from religion" please define it?
I think that the people who oppose "freedom from religion" are people who see "freedom from religion" as an attack on religion. They feel that their freedoms, the freedom to worship as they please, are infringed upon by the people who want to be free of religion. The battleground is public places, and the argument is that if I'm free to worship, then I must be free to worship in public places, free to be as ostentatious and intrusive as I want to be. And that's true. The problem is that public places, by virtue of being public, are shared places. And therefore there has to be a respect for others' boundaries. That means compromise. And some people, on BOTH sides of the dispute, aren't willing to compromise. They want absolutes. But that's not how a society or a culture work. Which was a fact recognized by our Founding Fathers, and still recognized by our government today. People have to compromise.
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