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How so? He is threatening that matters will be made worse by blacks talking about racism. If racism still exists and is still is a problem, then why should anyone get upset by pointing it out? Moreover, why would a white person who is not racist want to become racist just because black people talk about the racism that exists from whites who are racist? Its like non racist whites, supposedly, are covering for the racist whites by threatening that exposing the racism of some whites, and its negative impact upon some blacks, will only make matters worse. So blacks should just shut up unless they want to do more harm than good.
He isn't threatening. He is simply stating that it is counterproductive.
That is the problem with people and racism today. Racism is still treated as if people defending themselves against the bludgeon of racial accusations is a racist act in and of itself.
We don't live in the 1800's anymore.
The fact that you gleaned that from his paragraph and then used it to DETER free speech is puzzling.
Saying, "hey I think you're ridiculous and maybe you should stop whining" is MUCH different than "Hey, I suggest you stop talking or you are going to get 40 lashes"
Black Americans were granted equal rights to say what they feel a long time ago...and they are equals...unfortunately, for them, the right to NOT be offended was not granted. And we are VERY equal on those grounds. Some just get over and and...well...some don't!
There's a tipping point wherein the cries of racism start to outweigh the actual racism in peoples' minds. When you reach the place where you have to explain how something is racist, when you reach the point where you're having to discount successful blacks who discount racism as "not real African-Americans", when you have to start using terms like "code word", "undercurrent", "subconscious", "covert", etc then you've jumped the shark.
I'm not saying the racism isn't there, but I'm saying you've gotten to the point where you're starting to do more harm than good in the resentment and backlash you're provoking.
Some of us don't care about resentment and backlash. I'm still gonna call it like i see it regardless.
And I guess any Tom, Dick or Harry on a forum can self appoint themselves as the arbiter of when that tipping point has been reached or breached, no doubt. Furthermore, whether something is not as bad as people actually think does not logically invalidate an argument that things are bad, based on any induction or deduction rules that I am aware of. Hence, whether racism is as bad as black people think misses the point of whether its still a real problem. The Press in Flint Michigan reported 63 murders in 2010, but the FBI said there were only 54 in that city of 100,000 people. So the actual numbers were not as bad as was being reported, but the city STILL ended up, even with the smaller count, being the murder capital of the country that year. Again, the point being that things not being as bad as reported does not mean that they are not bad.
That was the first fallacy of your argument, and unfortunately there is more. Your second fallacy is the fallacy of the monolithic black race. In other words, there are no exceptionali among black people in abilities or experiences, everyone has the exact same abiliteis and experiences in degree and kind. Hence, successful blacks thus can be used to discredit claims of racism made by unsuccessful blacks. The truth is that there is always variation and stratification of abilities and experience to the degree the no one really walks in the shoes of another. Exceptional people will always rise above average people given the same circumstances. However, the fact that the average person could not overcome because of an obstacle is not invalidated by an exceptional person who overcame the same obstacle. Also, it might be the case that ones persons obstacle was not as difficult as the other persons obstacle. Think of t like this. Would anyone ever argue to Jewish people that the fact that some Jews survived in Germany during WWII caste aspersion upon the Jews who did not? Yet, people try to use successful blacks to caste aspersion upon unsuccessful blacks and to invalidate racism as being linked to the plight of such blacks.
I think your last paragraph is most interesting of all. It sounds like the “snitches get stitches” code in some inner-city neighborhoods. In other words, “Things are going to get worse for you if you don’t keep quiet”. For some reason, in every generation thus far, whites were angered and agitated by blacks speaking out about racism and their human quest for equality….to the degree that leaders were KILLED. Thus, its hard for me to take your warning as being nothing more than the same pattern of anger that has always existed, in every generation thus far, when blacks confronted America with its wrongs.
That's exactly what he was doing...threatening. Please, i'm not gonna be a mealy mouthed negro for anybody. If he wants to talk about "tipping point," then let's go there. I don't give a damn. But no way in hell will i keep my mouth shut just because the response might be anger and resentment. Too bad.
He isn't threatening. He is simply stating that it is counterproductive.
If you witnessed a crime commited by a gang and the gang later communicated to you that it would be "counter productive" for you to testify about what you saw......would that be considered a threat? I interpet productive as making things better and counter productive as making things worse.
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That is the problem with people and racism today. Racism is still treated as if people defending themselves against the bludgeon of racial accusations is a racist act in and of itself.
I would tend to agree that an individual should be able to defend themselves against the charges of racism without being considered racist. What is problematic is that many white people interpret blacks claims of the prevelence of white racism as meaning that ALL WHITES ARE RACIST and hence an individual will feel the need to defend him or herself from the bludgeon of racial accusations when none were personally made against that individual. Hence, such an individual ends up defending the racist who are actually the ones blacks are talking about. I guess what it appears like to me that whites are not really defending themselves as much as they are defending "white people". I mean, if one is not a white racist, but knows other white racist do exists, why would one try to discredit blacks claims of being impacted by white racism and why would that white person feel they are being bludgeoned by claims of racism. This is why I asked what percent of people need to be racist to validate that racism is a problem? If less than one percent of people engaging in violent criminal activity can make a city unsafe, obviously a small percent of people being racist can wreck havoc too.
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We don't live in the 1800's anymore.
And we don't live in the year 2200 either.
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The fact that you gleaned that from his paragraph and then used it to DETER free speech is puzzling.
Where would my power to deter free speech come from? I am not a moderator on this site.
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Saying, "hey I think you're ridiculous and maybe you should stop whining" is MUCH different than "Hey, I suggest you stop talking or you are going to get 40 lashes"
I would agree. Unfortunately the latter comes is closer to what was said because it suggest a negative consquence resulting. Counter productive meanss negative consquence and productive would mean a positive consquence resulting.
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Black Americans were granted equal rights to say what they feel a long time ago...and they are equals...unfortunately, for them, the right to NOT be offended was not granted. And we are VERY equal on those grounds. Some just get over and and...well...some don't!
Yeah....we are one big equal nation, living happly ever after.
Last edited by Indentured Servant; 02-14-2012 at 11:08 PM..
Lotta whites in inner city New York, Chicago, San Francisco, Cleveland, Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Los Angeles, Dallas, Houston, Albuquerque, Phoenix, Tucson, etc....
What are you talking about? I don't hear that.
What city do you live in?
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Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
I am sure you will correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think the collective state of white or black America can be defined be validated or invalidated by your personal experience. Hence, the facts of who you know are like rain drops in an ocean....and I am sure you know this which makes me wonder about your intellectual sincereity.
And just the same, the collective state of white or black America cannot be defined by YOUR experiences. The fact is there are just as many blacks who are racists as whites. Also, the fact that you still actively consider a 'black America' and a 'white America' tells me you might be a bit racist yourself. Someone who is not racist does not think of America in those terms. If that thought crosses your mind, your attitude is part of the problem. The only way to completely get rid of racism is to stop calling focus to it. As long as threads like this exists, we will all perpetuate racism. Indentured, for all of your good intentions, you are making racism worse by starting conversations like this.
1. And just the same, the collective state of white or black America cannot be defined by YOUR experiences. 2.The fact is there are just as many blacks who are racists as whites. Also, 3. the fact that you still actively consider a 'black America' and a 'white America' tells me you might be a bit racist yourself. Someone who is not racist does not think of America in those terms. If that thought crosses your mind, your attitude is part of the problem. 4 The only way to completely get rid of racism is to stop calling focus to it. As long as threads like this exists, we will all perpetuate racism. Indentured, for all of your good intentions, you are making racism worse by starting conversations like this.
1.You and I find agreement in regards to the collective state of white or black America not being able to be defined by my experiences, which is why I have not attempted to define it from such. The history is all here in the topic threads. Point out were I used my personal experience to draw conclusions about the whole! In fact, in this thread I even overtly state the opposite of what you are suggesting.
2. Lets test the validity of that statement. There are 200 million non hispanic whites in America and 40 million blacks. Thats 5 times as many whites than blacks. If a quarter of white people have some degree of racist beliefs, then MORE than ALL of the black people in this country, including infants, would have to be racist and that still would not math out to be just as many racist blacks as whites. Yet, that there is just as many black racist as whites you presented as FACT. What working defintion of FACT do you use? Furthermore, what working defintion of RACIST do you use and when have you done a mind reading census of each and every white and black person in this country to state emphatically that there are just as many black racist as whites, especially considering the fact that you attempted to caste aspersion on me for an erroneous claim of using my personal experience to draw conclusion about the whole. In light of that, does that not make THIS thread of your total hypocricy? Are you not extrapolating from your "I once had an experience" and exploding out this to be true for the whole? In other words, are you not using your personal experience as a microcosm of what generally goes on in America? So what you were suggesting is that you represent the majority of white people and the black lady represented the majority of black people, because that is the only way anything about blacks and whites could be drawn from that ONE experience.
3. rac·ism
/ˈreɪsɪzəm/ Show Spelled[rey-siz-uhm] Show IPA noun 1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
By which usage of the defintion of racism does my talking about blacks and whites conform to?
4. And is the only way to end out of wedlock births, crime, personal irresponsiblity, etc, equally endable by not talking about it? These are things that white folks like to talk about concerning black folks, which many white folks say blacks refuse to talk about and deal with. So why do white folks like to keep talking about those things if not talking about it helps problems to go away? I do not think that not talking about racism helps the problem go away, but rather, it helps those guilty of racism GET AWAY....with it.
One has to question the true motives of someone who uses such false reasoning and hypocricy. What are you attempting to hide or deflect?
Until fish can talk fisherman will always tell great tales about the one that got away. White folks are the fisherman and blacks, Native Americans and others have been the fished.
1.You and I find agreement in regards to the collective state of white or black America not being able to be defined by my experiences, which is why I have not attempted to define it from such. The history is all here in the topic threads. Point out were I used my personal experience to draw conclusions about the whole! In fact, in this thread I even overtly state the opposite of what you are suggesting.
2. Lets test the validity of that statement. There are 200 million non hispanic whites in America and 40 million blacks. Thats 5 times as many whites than blacks. If a quarter of white people have some degree of racist beliefs, then MORE than ALL of the black people in this country, including infants, would have to be racist and that still would not math out to be just as many racist blacks as whites. Yet, that there is just as many black racist as whites you presented as FACT. What working defintion of FACT do you use? Furthermore, what working defintion of RACIST do you use and when have you done a mind reading census of each and every white and black person in this country to state emphatically that there are just as many black racist as whites, especially considering the fact that you attempted to caste aspersion on me for an erroneous claim of using my personal experience to draw conclusion about the whole. In light of that, does that not make THIS thread of your total hypocricy? Are you not extrapolating from your "I once had an experience" and exploding out this to be true for the whole? In other words, are you not using your personal experience as a microcosm of what generally goes on in America? So what you were suggesting is that you represent the majority of white people and the black lady represented the majority of black people, because that is the only way anything about blacks and whites could be drawn from that ONE experience.
3. rac·ism
/ˈreɪsɪzəm/ Show Spelled[rey-siz-uhm] Show IPA noun 1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
By which usage of the defintion of racism does my talking about blacks and whites conform to?
4. And is the only way to end out of wedlock births, crime, personal irresponsiblity, etc, equally endable by not talking about it? These are things that white folks like to talk about concerning black folks, which many white folks say blacks refuse to talk about and deal with. So why do white folks like to keep talking about those things if not talking about it helps problems to go away? I do not think that not talking about racism helps the problem go away, but rather, it helps those guilty of racism GET AWAY....with it.
One has to question the true motives of someone who uses such false reasoning and hypocricy. What are you attempting to hide or deflect?
Until fish can talk fisherman will always tell great tales about the one that got away. White folks are the fisherman and blacks, Native Americans and others have been the fished.
I am not hiding or deflecting anything. I am simply saddened that you don't want to see racism become a thing of the past. I am not sure why you continually bring racism to light in thread after thread, when in all reality it is nearly a non-issue. I will say it again, every time you bring up racism, you perpetuate it.
Using your definitions of racism, affirmative action is a racist policy. The fact that it is easier for non-white races to get into college is a discriminatory action. I assume then, if you don't want to be a hypocrite, that you are anti-affirmative actin?
I am not hiding or deflecting anything. I am simply saddened that you don't want to see racism become a thing of the past. I am not sure why you continually bring racism to light in thread after thread, when in all reality it is nearly a non-issue. I will say it again, every time you bring up racism, you perpetuate it.
That is a rather sophmoric attempt at reverse psychology. You and the other poster are both using threats. The other recent poster threatened that talking about racism has become counter productive, meaning that it will do more harm than good. Now you are saying that talking about racism and its impact incubates racism. In other words, those who talk about the existance of racism become the root of the problem because they are flanning the flames of racism.
I think Sigmund Freud would say that such is an example of PROJECTION. The fact is that you are not a mind reader and cannot know that talking about racism will keep racism alive or inspire racism in anyone but yourself. Hence, you are extrapolating assumptions about how other humans will react based upon how YOU react to topic of race and racism. You are simply providing a window into your conscious.
I mean tell, what studies are you basing your claim that racism is essentially a non-issue? You cannot be basing it off personal experience, because you have already stated that such is invalid, when you said that me using my personal experience (which I never did) was invlaid. Furthermore, did you not just state that there are just as many black racist as white racist? Now you are saying that it is a non issue. Which is it? Both blacks and whites are racist or racism is a non issue?
Vampires run from the light. Vampires feel threatened when someone seeks to expose the light. Vampires will suggest that it is counter productive to attempt to bring light. Vampires will try and use reverse psychology to keep things dark. The righteous seeks out the light. The truth is the light.
Healing starts from the truth. Hence, it is the people who seek to skirt truth that are the ones who are not promoting healing. They are stuck in the denial stage.
That is a rather sophmoric attempt at reverse psychology. You and the other poster are both using threats. The other recent poster threatened that talking about racism has become counter productive, meaning that it will do more harm than good. Now you are saying that talking about racism and its impact incubates racism. In other words, those who talk about the existance of racism become the root of the problem because they are flanning the flames of racism.
I think Sigmund Freud would say that such is an example of PROJECTION. The fact is that you are not a mind reader and cannot know that talking about racism will keep racism alive or inspire racism in anyone but yourself. Hence, you are extrapolating assumptions about how other humans will react based upon how YOU react to topic of race and racism. You are simply providing a window into your conscious.
I mean tell, what studies are you basing your claim that racism is essentially a non-issue? You cannot be basing it off personal experience, because you have already stated that such is invalid, when you said that me using my personal experience (which I never did) was invlaid. Furthermore, did you not just state that there are just as many black racist as white racist? Now you are saying that it is a non issue. Which is it? Both blacks and whites are racist or racism is a non issue?
Vampires run from the light. Vampires feel threatened when someone seeks to expose the light. Vampires will suggest that it is counter productive to attempt to bring light. Vampires will try and use reverse psychology to keep things dark. The righteous seeks out the light. The truth is the light.
Healing starts from the truth. Hence, it is the people who seek to skirt truth that are the ones who are not promoting healing.
So you respond to me by talking about vampires? That makes it hard to take you seriously.
Healing does start from truth, and the truth is that racism is very much a non-issue, if you let it be. The truth is that talking about racism perpetuates it. If you want to ignore the truth that you are continuing racial tensions through your actions, go right ahead.
So you respond to me by talking about vampires? That makes it hard to take you seriously.
Healing does start from truth, and the truth is that racism is very much a non-issue, if you let it be. The truth is that talking about racism perpetuates it. If you want to ignore the truth that you are continuing racial tensions through your actions, go right ahead.
Vampires are mythical.....just like your thoughts about racism being a non issue.
I am still waiting for an explanation of your claims. You are making unsuported claims and give no reasoning explaining how you come to these conclusions.
We talked about racism and got the civil rights movement. In fact, this nation has been talking about racism since it created a nation predicated upon white superiority and black servitude. It was talking about race and racism that actually led to things changing for the better and the decline of overt racism. The pattern has been, if you study history, that confronting society over racism led to steps back initially, which then led to leaps forward. The civil war was a step back for the nation which allowed the nation to take a leap forward. The traumatic and violent 60's was a step back for the nation that led to a leap forward. Thus, in that regard I agree with you because people stuck in their ways fight to hold onto the status quo and resist change (hence...counter productive)....which makes things worse in the short run......but has always led to a better America in the long run.
As hard as it maybe for some to believe, most people during the era of slavery believed slavery was not an issue. They believed that the slaves were content, if not happy or better off as slaves. In the South in the 50's whites believed that that the PROBLEM was northern aggitators coming to the South stirring things up. They argued that black folks were happy and content with their lives under segregation and white domination. learn your history. Your argument falls right in line with arguments that only NOW seem absurd, but were generally accepted back then. 50 Years from now your argument will be laughed at as equally absurd.
Again....the people that are the source of the problem will generally define the situation as.....NOT A PROBLEM.
Last edited by Indentured Servant; 02-15-2012 at 10:12 AM..
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