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In the current system other peoples problems become yours. Ever gone to work and someone else there is sick? How long until this leads to increased contraction of MRSA or something worse because people can't afford a doctor under the current system?
Thats a slippery slope. You go to extremes to claim that since we don't have a socialized health care system, then this will lead to extensive contamination of people. Thats a scare tactic, not a valid argument. Besides, I know plenty of people who do have health care and yet still head off to work sicker than a dog rather than staying home a day or two and getting better. So what are you going to do if those people still head to work? Garnish their wages with "penalty fees" for going to work sick?
Also, as has been said before. The whole "can't afford health insurance" claim is often (not always) an issue of "don't want to afford it and don't care to educate themselves to find good prices". As I have said before, my wife worked in the industry for several years. There are affordable policies if people learn what they are and how to shop for them. Most would rather head out and lease for 700 bucks a month on a "cool" car they don't need with an interest rate that only an idiot would agree to rather than budget, spend wisely, and prioritizing needs over wants.
You know whats really funny? Most people who complain about these "policies" try to pick up plans from COBRA as an example of insurance. Guess who is in control of that?
As I said, people spend very unwisely. They don't manage their money and they are irresponsible. Sure you can start citing me specific cases where a family or a person has an extreme illness or has had terrible luck in life, but you would have to lie about the numbers to try and pass it off as the norm. They are the small percentage of problems and as some people have said in past discussions, if it were only those people who needed help, our current system would have more than enough money and power to aid them.
So like I said, other peoples problems become mine because they are irresponsible. Only way to deal with people who are irresponsible it to let them reap what they sow. Sure, it will make it hard on many for a while, but maybe they will get the idea that people aren't going to run to the "call wolf" each time they ignore their personal responsibilities. Some people say that is uncaring, but I think giving a drug addict drugs to solve their problem is irresponsible and uncaring, yet that is exactly what people are suggesting we do in these situations. We keep feeding people the drugs for their irresponsible lifestyle.
Thats a slippery slope. You go to extremes to claim that since we don't have a socialized health care system, then this will lead to extensive contamination of people. Thats a scare tactic, not a valid argument. Besides, I know plenty of people who do have health care and yet still head off to work sicker than a dog rather than staying home a day or two and getting better. So what are you going to do if those people still head to work? Garnish their wages with "penalty fees" for going to work sick?
Also, as has been said before. The whole "can't afford health insurance" claim is often (not always) an issue of "don't want to afford it and don't care to educate themselves to find good prices". As I have said before, my wife worked in the industry for several years. There are affordable policies if people learn what they are and how to shop for them. Most would rather head out and lease for 700 bucks a month on a "cool" car they don't need with an interest rate that only an idiot would agree to rather than budget, spend wisely, and prioritizing needs over wants.
You know whats really funny? Most people who complain about these "policies" try to pick up plans from COBRA as an example of insurance. Guess who is in control of that?
As I said, people spend very unwisely. They don't manage their money and they are irresponsible. Sure you can start citing me specific cases where a family or a person has an extreme illness or has had terrible luck in life, but you would have to lie about the numbers to try and pass it off as the norm. They are the small percentage of problems and as some people have said in past discussions, if it were only those people who needed help, our current system would have more than enough money and power to aid them.
So like I said, other peoples problems become mine because they are irresponsible. Only way to deal with people who are irresponsible it to let them reap what they sow. Sure, it will make it hard on many for a while, but maybe they will get the idea that people aren't going to run to the "call wolf" each time they ignore their personal responsibilities. Some people say that is uncaring, but I think giving a drug addict drugs to solve their problem is irresponsible and uncaring, yet that is exactly what people are suggesting we do in these situations. We keep feeding people the drugs for their irresponsible lifestyle.
Yes I know people that go off to work sick because they can't afford to lose a days pay, or the sick days, or pay for a doctor, or face the increased scrutiny from the management. I'm arguing that if people don't feel well then they should go see a doctor and rest.
Too bad, its their fault for getting sick. Thats the right wing personal responsibility solution.
What about people who get cancer, get their coverage rates skyrocket and are forced to quit their jobs or not go in to work and lose wages. I suppose its their fault too for getting cancer.
Funny I live in an apartment complex thats not well off and I don't see a lot of cool cars. I love that stereotype perpetuated by the wealthy to make people feel its ok to not have any sense of social responsibility.
Personal responsibility is a myth and a lie. Otherwise. Jeff Skilling would have gotten a much more severe sentence. Or the congressmen, both republicans and democrats convicted of bribery. What about CEOs that lose money in a company, cost people their jobs and then get a large severance package? They didn't do their job, where's the personal responsibility?
Personal responsibility is a myth created by Ron Paul and Reagan so the rich could get increasingly richer and the poor poorer. Just like social responsibility is a myth created by the left so those viscous poor people can exploit the rich.
Neither side is perfect. I'd just rather not see people starve and work in sweatshops or live in boxes because I think people are better than that.
Nope last I checked the right wing rich elite is the one that wants tax cuts for the wealthy (themselves) while shirking social responsibilities.
Even more concise if you like.
Right wing: personal responsibility.
Left wing: social responsibility of all people.
You should be able to figure out which is more selfish from there.
Yes, you have it exactly right. One side promotes individuals being responsible for their own decisions. Cleaning up their own mistakes, admitting they were at fault and need to deal with the consequences.
On the other side, they tell people that we are responsible for other peoples poor behavior, their poor decisions, mistakes, and unwillingness to accept fault and repair it themselves. We are to suffer for their indiscretion and irresponsibility.
And you wonder why they call the left "wacky"? /boggle
Yes I know people that go off to work sick because they can't afford to lose a days pay, or the sick days, or pay for a doctor, or face the increased scrutiny from the management. I'm arguing that if people don't feel well then they should go see a doctor and rest.
Too bad, its their fault for getting sick. Thats the right wing personal responsibility solution.
What about people who get cancer, get their coverage rates skyrocket and are forced to quit their jobs or not go in to work and lose wages. I suppose its their fault too for getting cancer.
Funny I live in an apartment complex thats not well off and I don't see a lot of cool cars. I love that stereotype perpetuated by the wealthy to make people feel its ok to not have any sense of social responsibility.
Personal responsibility is a myth and a lie. Otherwise. Jeff Skilling would have gotten a much more severe sentence. Or the congressmen, both republicans and democrats convicted of bribery. What about CEOs that lose money in a company, cost people their jobs and then get a large severance package? They didn't do their job, where's the personal responsibility?
Personal responsibility is a myth created by Ron Paul and Reagan so the rich could get increasingly richer and the poor poorer. Just like social responsibility is a myth created by the left so those viscous poor people can exploit the rich.
Neither side is perfect. I'd just rather not see people starve and work in sweatshops or live in boxes because I think people are better than that.
When you stop building straw mans by taking me out of context, inserting your own brand of interpetation to my posts, and thrusting slippery slope examples into the mix, I will start discussing this with you again. Go back and reread the validity of your claims, the side steps to your arguments and the generalities you produce. If you think that you are discussing from a logically valid point, then please don't bother responding to me again.
Nope last I checked the right wing rich elite is the one that wants tax cuts for the wealthy (themselves) while shirking social responsibilities.
Even more concise if you like.
Right wing: personal responsibility.
Left wing: social responsibility of all people.
You should be able to figure out which is more selfish from there.
Sorry but if somebody starts a business and becomes successful, they earned what they have. I don't see what's so selfish about that. I'm not even rich and I still oppose universal healthcare and related things. The rich should not be obligated to take care of people. Why can't people who aren't in their position admit that? That's a socialist ideology and goes against what are country was built on. The Founding Fathers would hate how America is today. The country was built on Libertarian ideology believe it or not. The whole responsibility of all people thing came when democrats formed after separation from the Libertarians and taking on some communist viewpoints. What makes personal responsibility selfish? Nothing other than your hatred for the wealthy most likely. You're probably one of the people who actually thinks the War on Drugs is working and our billions in tax money should keep going towards this war that will never end. And I guess it's our responsibility to help drug addicts too? It seems people always forget one thing. If you care about people that much, YOU are the one that should be helping them. If people are drug addicts, and you feel sorry for them, YOU help them one on one. Don't be mad at people for not spending their money on people who are in their position by their own "personal choice".
Sorry but if somebody starts a business and becomes successful, they earned what they have. I don't see what's so selfish about that. I'm not even rich and I still oppose universal healthcare and related things. The rich should not be obligated to take care of people. ...
This is an extremely selfish and short-sighted point of view. Does a person accumulate wealth in business in the USA simply as an individual? Does that person not participate as a citizen in the general welfare of the society? How do you define yourself as a citizen of the United States?
This is more "citizenship lite" speak. This is the kind of thinking that led the USA into the Great Depression of the 1930s.
Last edited by ParkTwain; 02-14-2008 at 12:10 PM..
This is an extremely selfish and short-sighted point of view. Does a person accumulate wealth in business in the USA simply as an individual? Does that person not participate as a citizen in the general welfare of the society?
This is more "citizenship lite" speak.
Selfish? WTF? So it's the resposibility of the rich to take care of people who don't want to do anything with their lives or are on drugs? No, it isn't. If it's that big of an issue to you, YOU should be the one taking care of it. The people who are concerned are the ones the actions should be coming from. Don't take money out of people's pockets and spend it on something they don't want. That is STEALING. Taxation is stealing. The Founding Fathers would hate how America is right now. The country was founded with Libertarian ideology. Now it's just socialism. And I oppose any universal systems, because it takes liberties away. Next, they'll be telling you what foods to eat to keep taxation for health care down. So much for a country that was built on laws to protect Americans from a government that was too big and had too much power. Seems like you don't mind though.
And for the record, if I was rich, I would donate money all the time. My point is, you shouldn't make people who don't want to do it. It's robbery.
Selfish? WTF? So it's the resposibility of the rich to take care of people who don't want to do anything with their lives or are on drugs? ...
You need to get out of the country club locker room more often!
Why is it that the poor are taking drugs? You must think that life for the majority of poor Americans is really pretty good!
Are you a resident of Planet Earth?
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