Europe "baffled" by US Supreme Court ruling on healthcare (statistics, ideology)

[Neuling]

Originally Posted by Whateverhere

different directions?

Again I already that more automation will destroy a lot of jobs where do you think those people will work? I think a moderate shrinking population is not so bad.

Hm, there is a lot of automation already, some industries in Germany are desperately looking for employees. There are over one million vacancies already. Now imagine the population will shrink and at the same time get even older, with more people retiring...

[Mircea]

Originally Posted by desertdetroiter

They're serfs? Wow. Who's spending billions a year on Europe's defense although they're a bunch of wealthy nations that can afford their own defense? Not to mention our economic competitors.

You keep saying that, but you don't make the connection between the fact that they have UHC and don't pay for defense.

Force them to subsidize their own defense and let's see how long their UHC system lasts.

Financially...

Mircea

Originally Posted by whogo

Western civilization sucked before the Enlightenment which recognized individual liberty as the key to human happiness, not socialized medicine. The Declaration of Independence was inspired by classical liberalism which is a whole different breed from modern liberalism.

That is correct.

Philosophically...

Mircea

Originally Posted by Evenstar51

How would we know? The GOP attacked it outrageously with lies about "death panels" and "killing Granny" until we got a watered-down version. People in Massachusetts seem to be happy with Romneycare, however.

People are happy with Romneycare?

Taxachusux is going broke and is killing its own economy.

Read and weep:

From 2007 to 2009, private group health insurance premiums in Massachusetts increased roughly 5 to 10 percent annually, when adjusted for benefits. This compares to consumer price index (CPI-U) increases (for all goods and services) averaging 1.7 percent annually over the same time period nationwide and 2.0 percent in the Northeast.

Deductibles and copayments generally increased from 2007 to 2009. For example, in the small group sector, the inpatient copayment in the most popular HMO plan increased from $500 to $1,000.

The findings of this analysis indicate that health insurance premium increases in Massachusetts continue to outpace inflation. This trend presents a multitude of challenges to nearly every facet of the Commonwealth’s health and economy. If health care costs and health premiums continue to rise faster than wage growth, employees may struggle with increased premium contributions and cost-sharing responsibilities. Furthermore, with ever-higher premiums being
quoted by carriers to local businesses, many employers will continue to “buy down” benefits, potentially leaving employees and their families more exposed to cost and less likely to access needed care because of additional copayments, co-insurance, or deductibles.

[Government Publication: No Copyright Violation]

http://www.mass.gov/eohhs/docs/dhcfp/cost-trend-docs/cost-trends-docs-2011/premium-report.pdf (broken link)

I high-lighted the relevant parts since you don't seem to be able to grasp the concepts.

Amused...

Mircea

Originally Posted by StillwaterTownie

So what the heck is an inalienable right to conservatives? Is it the right to breath air free of charge without getting billed for it from heaven?

You cannot have an a right to something that never existed previously.

I would have hoped you had the common sense to realize that.

Commonly sensible...

Mircea

Originally Posted by Oleg Bach

The right to a doctor who is not a merchant of greed....is not a bad thing... In CANADA we have universal health care...in fact we spend half our money on making sure we all stay alive and are all as healthy as possible..what's so bad about that?

In Canada, people die in the emergency rooms because they are not treated.

In Canada, people wait 24-36 hours in an emergency room and then leave and die.

Why don't you want people to know that?

I've posted the links to those Canadian newspapers and TV stations many a time.

Why do people from O Canada! come to the US for health care?

Are you aware that O Canada! only has a measly 30 Million people?

How many Carrier Battle Groups does O Canada! have? Oh, well, that in fact is a trick question, because O Canada! has no Carrier Battle Groups, and in reality has no military to speak of. O Canada's defense is subsidized by the US.

Why would you not fact that into the equation? Are you intentionally trying to be deceitful?

Originally Posted by Oleg Bach

...a healthy common populace will make them even more rich....

Then why aren't you "rich?"

Per Capita GDP

1 Qatar
2 Luxembourg
3 Singapore
4 Norway
5 Brunei
6 Hong Kong/UAE
7 United States
8 Switzerland
9 The Netherlands
10 Austria
11 Australia
12 Kuwait
13 Sweden
14 O Canada!

Ooops.

Educating the not too bright...

Mircea

Originally Posted by InsaneTraveler

Most Americans do understand the Commerce Clause. I don't believe that Obamacare violates it at all.

Then you just proved you don't understand the Commerce Clause.

The correct interpretation of the Commerce Clause is very simple: Congress can only regulate Commerce when a conflict exists between States.

The purpose of the Commerce Clause is to allow the federal government to step in if one or more States takes harmful economic action against other States.

An example would be the State of Ohio levying a special tax or fee on corn from the State of Indiana in an attempt to protect Ohio corn farmers. Congress then has the right under the Commerce Clause to step in and take action, up to and including enacting legislation to ensure that protective taxes are not levied against States.

Go read the committee meeting notes from the men who wrote the damn Commerce Clause.

Originally Posted by InsaneTraveler

I wouldn't care if it did violate the clause, as it would bring health insurance to nearly 40 million Americans that unjustly don't have it. Any clause can be overlooked if the benefit of the people was in question.

Prove that "nearly 40 million Americans unjustly don't have it."

If you want them to have "health insurance" (snicker) then you pay for it.

What right do you have to force me to pay for someone's "health insurance?"

If they cancel the goddam cable/satellite service and their cell-phone service they could afford "health insurance."

Originally Posted by InsaneTraveler

Number of people without health insurance in U.S. climbs - Sep. 13, 2011

50 million Americans do not have health insurance. Subtract 10 million for your illegal immigrants and you have 40 million Americans without some form of health insurance.

Those studies are bogus and have all been heavily debunked.

Originally Posted by InsaneTraveler

I certainly care about the constitution. I also recognize that any written document can undergo changes or be reinterpreted in different ways as society changes.

"...any written document can undergo changes?"

Really?

If I were your banker, I would change your mortgage contract to increase the amount of your payments, and I would also increase the amount of your car payments, and as your health plan provider, I would refuse to pay for any of your health care and I would raise your interest rate on your credit cards to 35%, because, um, you know, "any written document can undergo changes."

I don't suppose you can see the insanity in that.

The US Constitution can undergo changes: it's called an Amendment.

Look into it.

Constitutionally...

Mircea

Originally Posted by Whateverhere

Well the german economy outgrew UK's economy in the last three years and its projected to grow faster than the UK this year. There is not much the UK can do to prevent a berlin-moscow-axis from happening. The UK is kind of irrelevant on a global scale.

No Global trade will only increase, and fuel will as well. Germany and Russia have a bright future. America doesn't.

No kidding.

I've been saying that since 2006.

The US will ultimately end up like the UK: a small yapping dog.

Globally...

Mircea

[cwa1984]

Originally Posted by Whateverhere

Most Indians I know can't stand the UK. Most Chinese neither.Their former colonies are holding a grudge against them.

Canada, New Zealand, Australia, and the United States have grudges against the UK?

No rough time for Germany.

Yeah even though there are going to be 20 million less Germans in the coming decades.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

No problem since you didn't burst my bubble.

But rough time for America very much. Soon enough america will become just another Latin American country.

And you claim you don't hate America.

[StillwaterTownie]

Originally Posted by desertdetroiter

Oh no...God forbid they actually come out swinging against military spending. That'll never happen.

Republicans also reject the notion of doing something fiscally responsible to pay for their wars by raising taxes. But then why should they, when it's pretty easy to stick taxpayers with it by borrowing however billions of dollars that are needed?

[Whateverhere]

Originally Posted by cwa1984

Canada, New Zealand, Australia, and the United States have grudges against the UK?



Yeah even though there are going to be 20 million less Germans in the coming decades.





No problem since you didn't burst my bubble.




And you claim you don't hate America.

Those countrys don't care about the UK. They have the same relationship to the UK as they have to Germany. So in your book I hate America because I'm predicting demographics? There are projected to be 10 million less germans by 2050. Know your facts. Plus there are no reliable statistics about that because you can't predict what is happening in the next 40 years. I think there are going to be great years for countries like Germany and Scandinavia because they have a high educated workforce and sound social policies. Many experts think automation will make up for a declining population in the future. Industrial countries with high growth of people with low education will face mass structural unemployment. It's already happening in the U.S. America has nearly 20 % unemployment if you look at the U6 number.

[Ghostrider275452]

Originally Posted by Evenstar51

Indeed...they have better health care, longer vacations, work less and in some countries live longer as well. Meanwhile, we have the burden of trying to rectify America's problems while having to deal with people who
use terms like "euroweenies" to try and denigrate the countries that are the foundation of Western Civilization. The dunce caps are firmly in place.

Yet you live and prosper in America.

[SNEwx_46]

stopped reading at "euroweenies".

c'mon son.

[Rggr]

The British were "baffled" that we didn't want to be subjects of the King too...

[Ghostrider275452]

Originally Posted by Evenstar51

How would we know? The GOP attacked it outrageously with lies about
"death panels" and "killing Granny" until we got a watered-down version.
People in Massachusetts seem to be happy with Romneycare, however.

And they're broke because of it.

[CravingMountains]

Originally Posted by Mircea

Then you just proved you don't understand the Commerce Clause.

The correct interpretation of the Commerce Clause is very simple: Congress can only regulate Commerce when a conflict exists between States.

The purpose of the Commerce Clause is to allow the federal government to step in if one or more States takes harmful economic action against other States.

An example would be the State of Ohio levying a special tax or fee on corn from the State of Indiana in an attempt to protect Ohio corn farmers. Congress then has the right under the Commerce Clause to step in and take action, up to and including enacting legislation to ensure that protective taxes are not levied against States.

Go read the committee meeting notes from the men who wrote the damn Commerce Clause.



Prove that "nearly 40 million Americans unjustly don't have it."

If you want them to have "health insurance" (snicker) then you pay for it.

What right do you have to force me to pay for someone's "health insurance?"

If they cancel the goddam cable/satellite service and their cell-phone service they could afford "health insurance."



Those studies are bogus and have all been heavily debunked.



"...any written document can undergo changes?"

Really?

If I were your banker, I would change your mortgage contract to increase the amount of your payments, and I would also increase the amount of your car payments, and as your health plan provider, I would refuse to pay for any of your health care and I would raise your interest rate on your credit cards to 35%, because, um, you know, "any written document can undergo changes."

I don't suppose you can see the insanity in that.

The US Constitution can undergo changes: it's called an Amendment.

Look into it.

Constitutionally...

Mircea

The commerce clause can be interpreted in that everyone will require the use of healthcare services at some point in their lives, so they can be forced to buy into the pool. Many people will require the use of medical services in states that are not their home states. I for instance was hit by a car while crossing the street at a pedestrian walk way because some bimbo wasn't paying attention. I had to spend the whole day in the ER getting repaired. That accident happened in Georgia while I was there on vacation. My home state is Florida. That is an example of the interstate commerce that occurs with healthcare services across state lines, making them subject to federal government intervention.

I will gladly pay my fair share of taxes so that we can have universal health care. You will also pay your share! We all live in and share this society, and sometimes for the betterment of the country we have to provide things that don't necessarily affect us. I am sure at some point my taxes have gone to pay for the construction of a public school on the Texas and Mexican border. I will never have the benefit of that, but I am glad it was done because it is important for us to educate younger Americans whether they live in Florida, Texas, or Alaska. The same standard should be held for healthcare.

And cancelling a phone bill wouldn't get anyone insurance. Hell, back before I had a pre-existing condition I would have paid $200 bucks a month for health insurance with blue cross blue shield. And I was a very healthy late teen when I checked then. My phone bill is not even half of $200. My roommate pays for the cable in our house. He is the only one who watches it.

Hah. Why not instead of babbling nonsense you debunk them for us? Those statistics are real and are a reflection of the dozens of millions of Americans who currently suffer under our current healthcare system.

And your example of changing a bank contract is bogus. I swear to god you conservatives and the absurd metaphors you use. In your example someone arbitrarily changed the contract, like a dictator. Our constitution can be amended and can be interpreted in various was only upon the approval of the voters. We vote our politicians in to make these decisions for us.