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No, that's not what the implication of the message. The message is that when we succeed, we do it together.
As Jon Stewart said, "when someone says "the point is," the stuff after that 9 out of 10 times IS the point." The righties just want to create a fake controversy .
Well way too many didn't get that same "implication of the message" that you did.
The Obama team has had to spend money on ads to "clairify" their message.
Most of the posters here are scholarly - which is wonderful...I have one comment- During my time in the film business - I ran into a young Russian who was about to start producing his own films...I asked him who is going to fund them? I questioned him. "Is it the Russian Mafia?" He said yes- I asked him "Are you not worried that they will hurt you?" - He said no.....He said they have a rule of civility and honor...about taking credit where credit is due...the rule was simple "EVERYBODY MUST GET PAID" It made sense to me.
Obama's comment smells dishonorable. It is as he is hinting- get prepared to be ripped off...That the product of you labor and brain is not yours- that it belongs to someone else - That you did NOT make it happen...There is something amiss in those words...something that sounds like the start of some sort of grand robbery...of a whole nation. He would not do well among men of honor...
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Obama's comment smells dishonorable. It is as he is hinting- get prepared to be ripped off...That the product of you labor and brain is not yours- that it belongs to someone else - That you did NOT make it happen...There is something amiss in those words...something that sounds like the start of some sort of grand robbery...of a whole nation. He would not do well among men of honor...
Take it up with Benjamin Franklin, whose view was even much more radical:
Quote:
"All the Property that is necessary to a man, for the conservation of the individual and the propagation of the species, is his natural right, which none can justly deprive him of: But all property superfluous to such purposes is the property of the publick, who, by their laws, have created it, and who may therefore by other laws dispose of it, whenever the welfare of the publick shall demand such disposition. He that does not like civil society on these terms, let him retire and live among savages."
Well way too many didn't get that same "implication of the message" that you did.
The Obama team has had to spend money on ads to "clairify" their message.
Yea, they didn't get the message because the Fox propaganda channel edited out the critical sentence that I quoted above. Why do you think they did that, huh?
"Mr. Romney, hanging your attack on someone's slight grammatical misstep is what people do in an argument when they're completely f--cked and they know they have no argument."
Yea, they didn't get the message because the Fox propaganda channel edited out the critical sentence that I quoted above. Why do you think they did that, huh?
"Mr. Romney, hanging your attack on someone's slight grammatical misstep is what people do in an argument when they're completely f--cked and they know they have no argument."
Oh so the Fox channel is so influential to America that the Obama campaign had to take out ads.
If Obama had used the correct wording and given credit where credit is due then his team wouldn't have to be back tracking and doing damage control.
This is not the first time Obama has put his foot in his mouth.
Remember his "The middle class is doing fine" remarks ? They had to take ads out as well for that one to "clarify" his message.
Lots of people work hard. My cleaning lady works hard. My gardener works hard. Taxi drivers work 12 hr. shifts. It's insulting to millions of hard working Americans to presume that hard work alone (e.g. it's about me) is what makes success.
It's a mixture of many things. Very important, as the President was stating, is the country that you live in. Bill Gates and Steve Jobs would not have been a successes had they been born in Somalia, where they couldn't get the opportunities to become what they became. In Somalia, it's a struggle to survive; not so in America;
Without the educational infrastructure; the modern utilities and public infrastructure those two people would never be known to the world.
These concepts are not strangers to our history. Many others, including the founders of the nation accepted these concepts.
So why is it so hard now for some to accept this today?
Quote:
Sept. 1782
He finds it is imagined by Numbers, that the Inhabitants of North America are rich, capable of rewarding, and dispos'd to reward, all sorts of Ingenuity; that they are at the same time ignorant of all the Sciences, and, consequently, that Strangers, possessing Talents in the Belles-Lettres, fine Arts, &c., must be highly esteemed, and so well paid, as to become easily rich themselves; that there are also abundance of profitable Offices to be disposed of, which the Natives are not qualified to fill; and that, having few Persons of Family among them, Strangers of Birth must be greatly respected, and of course easily obtain the best of those Offices, which will make all their Fortunes; that the Governments too, to encourage Emigrations from Europe, not only pay the Expence of personal Transportation, but give Lands gratis to Strangers, with Negroes to work for them, Utensils of Husbandry, and Stocks of Cattle. These are all wild Imaginations; and those who go to America with Expectations founded upon them will surely find themselves disappointed.
These Ideas prevailing more or less in all the United States, it cannot be worth any Man's while, who has a means of Living at home, to expatriate himself, in hopes of obtaining a profitable civil Office in America; and, as to military Offices, they are at an End with the War, the Armies being disbanded. Much less is it adviseable for a Person to go thither, who has no other Quality to recommend him but his Birth. In Europe it has indeed its Value; but it is a Commodity that cannot be carried to a worse Market than that of America, where people do not inquire concerning a Stranger, What is he? but, What can he do? If he has any useful Art, he is welcome; and if he exercises it, and behaves well, he will be respected by all that know him; but a mere Man of Quality, who, on that Account, wants to live upon the Public, by some Office or Salary, will be despis'd and disregarded.
Several of the Princes of Europe having of late years, from an Opinion of Advantage to arise by producing all Commodities and Manufactures within their own Dominions, so as to diminish or render useless their Importations, have endeavoured to entice Workmen from other Countries by high Salaries, Privileges, &c. Many Persons, pretending to be skilled in various great Manufactures, imagining that America must be in Want of them, and that the Congress would probably be dispos'd to imitate the Princes above mentioned, have proposed to go over, on Condition of having their Passages paid, Lands given, Salaries appointed, exclusive Privileges for Terms of years, &c. Such Persons, on reading the Articles of Confederation, will find, that the Congress have no Power committed to them, or Money put into their Hands, for such purposes; and that if any such Encouragement is given, it must be by the Government of some separate State. This, however, has rarely been done in America; and, when it has been done, it has rarely succeeded
Take it up with Benjamin Franklin, whose view was even much more radical:
Quote:
The Remissness of our People in Paying Taxes is highly blameable; the Unwillingness to pay them is still more so. I see, in some Resolutions of Town Meetings, a Remonstrance against giving Congress a Power to take, as they call it, the People's Money out of their Pockets, tho' only to pay the Interest and Principal of Debts duly contracted. They seem to mistake the Point. Money, justly due from the People, is their Creditors' Money, and no longer the Money of the People, who, if they withold it, should be compell'd to pay by some Law.
According to *******s if they simply spend all the future monies on fairytale dreams and absurd wants then all that is just because they were spending all the monies on the people and thereby they can use the words of Franklin to justify enslaving the entire nation and all of its future generations.
This is the worst kind of revisionism every foisted upon mankind.
And from Paine:
Quote:
Some writers have so confounded society with government, as to leave little or no distinction between them; whereas they are not only different, but have different origins. Society is produced by our wants and government by our wickedness; the former promotes our happiness positively by uniting our affections, the latter negatively by restraining our vices. The one encourages intercourse, the other creates distinctions. The first is a patron, the last a punisher.
Society in every state is a blessing, but government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one: for when we suffer, or are exposed to the same miseries by a government, which we might expect in a country without government, our calamity is heightened by reflecting that we furnish the means by which we suffer. Government, like dress, is the badge of lost innocence; the palaces of kings are built upon the ruins of the bowers of paradise. For were the impulses of conscience clear, uniform and irresistibly obeyed, man would need no other law-giver; but that not being the case, he finds it necessary to surrender up a part of his property to furnish means for the protection of the rest; and this he is induced to do by the same prudence which in every other case advises him, out of two evils to choose the least. Wherefore, security being the true design and end of government, it unanswerably follows that whatever form thereof appears most likely to ensure it to us, with the least expence and greatest benefit, is preferable to all others.
Absolute governments, (though the disgrace of human nature) have this advantage with them, they are simple; if the people suffer, they know the head from which their suffering springs; know likewise the remedy; and are not bewildered by a variety of causes and cures. But the Constitution of England is so exceedingly complex, that the nation may suffer for years together without being able to discover in which part the fault lies; some will say in one and some in another, and every political physician will advise a different medicine.
Lots of people work hard. My cleaning lady works hard. My gardener works hard. Taxi drivers work 12 hr. shifts. It's insulting to millions of hard working Americans to presume that hard work alone (e.g. it's about me) is what makes success.............
Correctomundo! The otherwise hardworker who routinely says,
That's not in my job description, I wasn't hired to do that, Why don't you tell Bob or Sally to do that instead of me, I wasn't told, That's just stupid, But my way is a lot better, What's one more pissed-off customer?, It's not fair...etc.
is not likely to be of as much value to an employer as the hardworker who routinely says,
What's next?, I can handle that, Will you show me how to do that?, This customer needs X--is there a way we can meet his needs?, I'd just as soon be busy as sitting here, Do you need help with that, what can I do? I don't understand--will you explain it to me? etc.
And some of the most rigorously physical jobs are among the most lightly compensated, no doubt. I held one of them in my school years.
As you noted, the President did pay some tribute to individual initiative, but only after slamming hard work and smarts as factors in the success of business people. If you substituted teachers or firefighters for business owners, the speech in its entirety with no edits would have been just as obnoxious to people in those professions. Anyone who uttered it would rightfully be thought to have a fairly twisted view of them.
It is getting a little tiresome to read how lucky businessowners are to be born in America, where the streets are paved and we have laws etc. It is the same luck that 300 million people share. Now, after 300 million people have the same good fortune, what differentiates among them? Business owners are also lucky that the atmossphere contains oxygen--is that a reason to downplay the factors in their success? Success, in the vast majority of cases, that results from meeting the needs of the rest of society in the most effective manner? When the top 10% of earners pay 70% of federal income taxes, is it even honest to suggest that business owners object to paying for roads and bridges?
Voters will have nearly four years of context in which to make their decision. The challenge presented by the snippet and the whole speech is that it gives people a way to explain these four years: Boeing and NLRB, the EPA expansion shutting down so many hundreds of commercial sites and utility generation plants, the $27 billion donated to the UAW at the expense of bondholders and taxpayers above and beyond the requirements of "saving the auto industry," Main Street banks staggering under Dodd Frank, etc., etc., etc. And it is big trouble for the president, as evidenced by the number of posts on this thread.
Hey Sam, I'll bet you've noticed the same thing I've noticed: The harder I work, the luckier I get.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJon3475
You dog you. Don't go giving out our secrets...
Who needs to win the Powerball when we hit the hard/smart work lottery everyday?
Okay. EXPLAIN how all the Taxi Drivers driving around, busting their ass on 12 hour shifts, aren't fantastically wealthy? All it takes is hard work and smarts, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTAtech
Lots of people work hard. My cleaning lady works hard. My gardener works hard. Taxi drivers work 12 hr. shifts. It's insulting to millions of hard working Americans to presume that hard work alone (e.g. it's about me) is what makes success.
It's a mixture of many things. Very important, as the President was stating, is the country that you live in. Bill Gates and Steve Jobs would not have been a successes had they been born in Somalia, where they couldn't get the opportunities to become what they became. In Somalia, it's a struggle to survive; not so in America;
Without the educational infrastructure; the modern utilities and public infrastructure those two people would never be known to the world.
These concepts are not strangers to our history. Many others, including the founders of the nation accepted these concepts.
So why is it so hard now for some to accept this today?
That entire eloquent post, and it gets cut down by people who still reject all of it because, well I guess people are just that selfish?
Okay. EXPLAIN how all the Taxi Drivers driving around, busting their ass on 12 hour shifts, aren't fantastically wealthy? All it takes is hard work and smarts, right?
I travel routinely to a major city, and had several miserable experiences with taxi drivers there. Then one time I rode with a pleasant, courteous, safe driver. Halfway through the trip, I asked how could I be sure to obtain his services in the future. He handed me his card, and said "If you text me with your flight number 24 hours before your plane lands, any time of the day or night, I will be waiting for you at X location when you walk out of the terminal. Don't worry about flight delays, I will track that. If for some reason I am not able to handle it personally, I will make sure that one of my friends is there for you."
Maybe all the other drivers work just as hard. But this one makes more money off me than any other taxi driver I have ever met.
Everyone who has ever built a business from scratch knows that words cannot express the time, effort, and determination it took to get established. It isn't JUST hard work, and it isn't JUST smarts, it isn't JUST a high tolerance for pain and stress, and it isn't JUST any one thing. Two years into my experience, my wife was telling me, "They are hiring a night clerk at the mini-mart--maybe you better go apply." The sad thing is, she had very valid reasons for making that suggestion.
Everybody knows what they've been told, but they know what they have been through on a much deeper level. That is why the president's obvious disconnect with one of the great themes of the American story has met with such a strong reaction.
None of this is meant to indicate denial that we're all connected, we're social beings, we need and must pay for societal goods. So please do not bother to attack it on those grounds.
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