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I mentioned russia and china earlier because wasn't the old soviet union ultra conservative? and china, making laws that married couples are only allowed one child and no more than one?
I think it would be difficult to find a conservative country that isn't a true dictatorship, wouldn't it?
Egypt I would consider ultra conservative, but the new leader has struck a nerve with the population.
Actually, most dictatorships would be considered far left, signifying extreme government overreach in social issues.
For starters, anyone here who thinks government can be used to get them something at somebody else's expense is part of the problem; "Legislated utopia" one of the biggest oxymorons of all.
A laissez-faire economy wouldn't create a capitalistic paradise. All it would do is remove the taxpayer-funded obstacles that make life harder for those of us who still try to play by the rules. And we would still start out at the bottom, with a long way to the top, and our masters would still interfere in our personal lives with all sorts of rules designed to please the smaller number of moneyed geezers at the top of the pyramid.
All of that is due to a system which protects those who got there first, be they conservative or "progressive". And I doubt that many of the "progressives" there would vote for serious change.
"Sunrise, sunset; what you're born with is what you get" (Russ Giguere / "The Association")
Last edited by 2nd trick op; 12-05-2012 at 04:25 PM..
I call Bull#@# on the "i'll make Conservative mean this, but socialism mean this" mentality here.
So most people hate some aspect of Conservative. But Conservative just means that small/gentle change is preferable to big/quick change. It emphasizes stability. You can be a socialist and conservative, if you were born in a socialist country for instance and liked what you saw.
It is when you start doing mission creep and calling Republicans conservatives that things get harry. I for one thing that in the economic market our free-market ideals have continuously beat our European friends. We out innovate. Our unemployment is lower. Is free market conservative?
Then you go to Social. man. That is SOO different. I mean seriously, the conservative thing to do in the 1800's was slavery. I think conservative and social issues don't mix. I think the only rationale approach is to apply tested and sound economic principals (free market, freedom to hire, fire, etc) that are now fairly conservative. I think people who want to social conservative, should become Muslim and move to Saudi Arabia. you can have all you want there.
That's probably more an ultramontane view than a Burkean one. Burke was staunch in his defense of the church as an institution, but in his time changes of church doctrine on social matters like gay marriage, abortion or adultery didn't happen, so there is no direct evidence for his likely response to these questions. We know he lived in a time, and among a class, whose sexual morality was pretty loose. My understanding of his principles suggests that he would not be likely to advocate an absolutely doctrinaire position on these issues. He certainly would have championed both family as an institution, the concept of an absolute morality, and the importance of the Christian church(es) as their preceptor and guarantor, but I think Burkean principles admit some compromise on the definition of the family. I believe a modern Burkean conservative can, in good conscience as a conservative, accept same-sex civil union.
A couple things. First, Burke's defense of religion is sincere but weak. He believed in established religious authority as a source of morality without getting too much into the details. Indeed he almost gloried in the mystery of its origins, not wanting to peer behind the veil, the mystery itself inspiring reverence. But this approach doesn't get us very far in the present crisis. There is no established religion in the United States, and the Church of England doesn't even pretend to promote "the concept of an absolute morality". I don't know that it's possible to be a thoroughgoing Burkean conservative in 2012 without making a mockery of it. Those who take western civilization seriously have been forced by the present crisis into a reactionary position, as it is no longer possible to lean on "custom, convention, and prescription" that no longer exists.
Second, I think Burke himself would agree that a self-conscious conservatism is already, to that extent, compromised by admitting the intrusion of liberal categories of thought. True conservatism is a process without content; a road map, not a destination. A real conservative barely knows he's a conservative ... or cares. The conservative process bids that men look to other things - preferably to what is old, established, tried and true among one's own people - for sources of wisdom, truth, and morality. This is in stark contrast to Liberalism which is an all-encompassing and self-contained theory of everything, a substitute religion.
But we live in post-revolutionary times. Vanishing little is established, tradition is for sale, morality is negotiable, and our only living patrimony is Liberalism itself. A Burkean conservative, unless he becomes reactionary, goes down with the Titanic. Would Burke approve of going down with the ship? I doubt it. He loved civilization too much. He would have fought to save a remnant.
As Russell Kirk put it:
"If a conservative order is indeed to return, we ought to know the tradition which is attached to it, so that we may rebuild society; if it is not to be restored, still we ought to understand conservative ideas so that we may rake from the ashes what scorched fragments of civilizations escape the conflagration of unchecked will and appetite."
What is the tradition attached to our dying civilization? The question answers itself. T.S. Eliot and Dorothy Sayers, both Anglicans until the end, confessed that Rome was the center of gravity for all of Christendom, the standard by which all Christians carefully measured their own conformity or dissent, and that without Rome there is no Christian culture possible in the west, not even in England.
Alright, having turned the question over, I think I've got a possibility for a genuinely conservative utopia.
Canada.
A monarchy with an unbroken constitutional tradition which has evolved peacefully and gradually, and an orderly, civil society which has successfully combined principles of egalitarianism and elitism. A country where the economy is dynamic but regulated, often self-regulated, in the interests of social peace and order. It comes closest to Burke's ideal of gradual change while preserving what is tested by time.
A pretty fair assessment -- I've been priveleged to know a good-sized group of Philippine-Canadian immigrants for over twenty years. The adults know they're not going to get too far, it's the kids they're banking on -- and for. Yet Canada is viewed as a "weak" nation -- a collection of five or six regions, each with an agenda of its own. And it's the French in Quebec who are the worst "spoilers" -- trying, for example, to force French on people who more likely strived to learn English.
They are likely to be among the first to surpass us if the American nation persists in it's descent into petty, squabbling socialism.
What I would like to see are examples of conservative countries that are so great to live in. What I'm asking is for posters on here to cite countries that are examples of conservative utopias.
There is a country about 340 miles east of New Zealand on a large island (that has been kept secret since the formation of the Bilderburg Group) that even Google Earth and other governments have been paid to not allow it to show up on satellite images. It is called 'Conservatopia' and has a population of about 1.2 million people.
The top 1% (who originally founded the nation) own 99.5% of the existing wealth including land, real estate, and currency. The remaining 99% all work for those at the top in sub-human conditions and are paid just enough to be able to live in wood shacks and tents. After all the 'producers' and great minds that are in control are providing the rest of the population with 'jobs' aka they are great job creators. That enable everyone else to live, even though it is at such a basic level.
Abortion is illegal there, but most of the children of the 99% die before they are a month old, due to lack of shelter, food and medical care. That is ok though, since the national religion of Christianity has everyone convinced that those dead babies arrive safely in a place called heaven once they die of either disease and or starvation. Some of the parents of those children, when they abandon them are prosecuted and go to prison work camps where they have to work even harder then when they are out 'free' in society.
There use to be a few smaller islands near Conservatopia, but about 20 years ago, a war was started and the politicians of the great country invaded the 'savages' that existed on those islands, and when they would not submit as well as be converted to the idealogy of Conserva-think, the army enabled private corporations of Conservatopia to steal the natural resources of those lands and then they bomed the hell out of the remaining inhabitants. It was the moral thing to do after all since those people would have died anyway without any natural resources left in their countries.
The minimum wage laws in Conservatopia are far lower than any type of currency that exists, so most landowners provide (1) free tent, and a 10x12 space on their land to any 'workers' that they are nice enough to 'give' a job to. Their daily pay consists of one Power Bar, two bottles of water and 4oz of peanut butter to keep them alive just long enough to work again the next day. Slavery in the traditional definition use to exist, but the leaders decided that it was far less expensive to 'employ' labor than actually be responsible for the person himself and have to provide luxuries that slaves require like shelter, food, clothing and medical care. Some inhabitants of Conservatopia have since banded together and are trying to get a law passed that will require members of the 1% to formally assume responsibility for them as actual slaves so that they can have a better life.
I read a lot on here about the evils of socialism (even as mis-applied to Obama).
It is extremely easy to cite 'socialist' countries (those where taxes are high and where governments are rather large) which are really quite nice: Scandanavia, much of Western Europe, Canada, etc.
What I would like to see are examples of conservative countries that are so great to live in. What I'm asking is for posters on here to cite countries that are examples of conservative utopias.
I read a lot on here about the evils of socialism (even as mis-applied to Obama).
It is extremely easy to cite 'socialist' countries (those where taxes are high and where governments are rather large) which are really quite nice: Scandanavia, much of Western Europe, Canada, etc.
What I would like to see are examples of conservative countries that are so great to live in. What I'm asking is for posters on here to cite countries that are examples of conservative utopias.
What's notable is that every example of a socialist paradise is a country that got rich on capitalism and then liberalized and went into decline - France, England, Germany - or are tiny homogenous societies - Denmark, Norway, Sweden.
Notice that when lefists point out a good socialist country that country is never, ever a country that became prosperous under socialism nor are their geography, demographics, or industry similar to the US.
North Korea vs South Korea, East Germany vs West Germany, etc? Nope. Leftists ignore that and instead try to say that America should just act like Norway instead.
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