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But the case is different. In the Assange case, US is pretending they are not interested in Assange. So if US cuts trade links with Ecuador due to giving him asylum, then US will show the world they did in fact lie about not being interested. And Assange did not humiliate the US like Snowden did.
It wasn't me who said it, but he is right. A small country like Ecuador can not protect Snowden, because US will use economic sanctions against any country who does protect him. A small country like Ecuador will have nothing in response. Economic sanctions against a big country will hurt the US as well. Hence, he only had three options, China, Russia or a country who has few important trade links like Venezuela. He can not reach Venezuela, China is too concerned about their reputation with the US. So there is only one option left, and that is Russia.
No, its common sense. GOP is just as involved in this program as Democrats are. That's why establishment republicans are not vilifying Obama, because they will look like hypocrites.
I will agree to disagree. I think there are too many tea partyers to hate Obama and who want to see him destroyed and who would have used this information to do just that. Also, there are VERY liberal liberals out there. Ones who would go through all sorts of hoops to scream about privacy rights. Like I said, I have been listening to a liberally biased radio program on this. They have been talking about privacy rights and the government invading the lives of Americans for a while. Liberals are also very loud and there are a lot of them. (FWIW, I have nothing against liberals or conservatives because I think both have valid arguments on specific topics) Whenever there is some "injustice" perceived by liberals they get a lot of attention on it. Snowden's information was HUGE!! Liberals, especially the program I have been listening to, would have run with that information. Their station is the only one that regularly provides updates on the wikileaks guys. They also heavily criticize the Obama Administration killing American citizens in the middle east. They are very outspoken about drone attacks and other sorts of militarization and denial of what they see as basic American rights.
Maybe I just have more expectations for my liberal and conservative countrymen/women. I truly do feel that if this information was given to an ultra liberal or ultra conservative house representative especially (they are more likely to have big mouths lol), Snowden could have a different path right now.
And you conveniently ignored my argument. The huge difference is that Ellsburg had the Democrats with him. Also this was over 40 years ago, and the laws are not the same. If it was up to Nixon he would have been prosecuted. You do realize other people has tried to release this information through Official Channels, and just ended up in trouble?
That is my point above. Snowden could have gained the support of a political party. He could have gone after both liberals and conservatives, but he chose not to do that. Also, Nixon was not interested in the Pentagon Papers when they first released because they had nothing to do with him and focused more on Johnson and Kennedy. It wasn't until later that he became involved. In regards to laws being "different" they really aren't that much different. Also, as I mentioned Ellsburg's case went to the SCOTUS. There was a precedent set by the case that Snowden could have followed. He chose not to do that. If he would have, he may have been imprisoned (I'm actually sure he would have been if he stayed in America) in the interim but due to the precedent, he would have been acquitted.
If someone released information about Benghazi, then he would probably not be prosecuted as well because it would just humiliate Obama and not both parties. Snowden revelations humiliated both parties, hence he will not see a fair trial.
This is true, that both parties would be humiliated. But this was also true in Ellsburg's case due to the Pentagon Papers covering a time people of the 1940s(Dems) through the 1960s(mostly Dems also were cited as perpetuators during Vietnam, primarily Johnson). Also, it is ironic that Ellsburg had the support of the Dems, when really Johnson was the primary focus of the Pentagon Papers, not Nixon. Nixon was brought in due to him being the sitting president. Many people associate him now with this point in history but he was not the player in Vietnam that Johnson was.
You mentioning the Dems supporting Ellsburg is the reason why I do believe the GOP would have supported Snowden. Obama is the sitting president (like Nixon) he would be blamed and the opposition (GOP) could obtain an advantage with this sort of scandal.
Think about this. If Snowden really could have followed the lead of Ellsburg, why wouldn't he? You think he rather want to live in Russia or Hong Kong than to stay in Hawaii with his girlfriend and family.
For me, the bolded section above is what makes me suspicious of Snowden. I think he didn't follow Ellsburg's lead because he is selling the information he knows with China and Russia and other enemy countries of the US. There is no reason why he could not follow Ellsburg's lead.
And in regards to living in Russia or Hong Kong especially, despite what people have said on this thread, both Russia and China have very western style, comfortable cities. He could easily stay on the Black Sea in Russia and get a cute Russian girlfriend.
In reality there are no legal channels for whistleblowers. His other options was to not release information at all or go to prison for life.
There are other options. There is no guarantee that he would have gone to prison for life. As it stands now, I think he will be killed. I would rather be alive in prison than killed. Also, IMO it shows Snowden is a coward. He wants to take a stand but he doesn't want to acknowledge and accept the risks associated with the stand. There are many political prisoners in the US. They took a stand a lived with the consequences of their stand. Many of them have been released over the years so it was not life in prison. This actually makes me think of Nelson Mandela being that he has also been in the news as of late. He took a stand and fought for what he believed in and was imprisoned for nearly 30 years for doing so, but he still fought and remained a symbol for freedom even during his years in prison and he ended up being a world wide hero and president of his country. So to me, Snowden is not a hero. I think he is covering up something. No matter the excuses given by the radio show or others, he had other options versus fleeing the country.
Responses in blue.
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Originally Posted by Frank DeForrest
Yeah I dont know why snowden doesnt come back to be tortured and locked in a cage
Are people really that stupid to wonder why he stays abroad and somewhat free?
I honestly don't feel he can come back now. He has sealed the deal and will have to remain on the run. I fully believe he will be executed by some branch of our government or even by the Russians as I'm sure we have infiltrators in Russia who may be able to find and assassinate him. He should have taken his chances in his own country. More people, especially people like me, would have supported him.
I honestly don't feel he can come back now. He has sealed the deal and will have to remain on the run. I fully believe he will be executed by some branch of our government or even by the Russians as I'm sure we have infiltrators in Russia who may be able to find and assassinate him. He should have taken his chances in his own country. More people, especially people like me, would have supported him.
Snowden is the third whistleblower on the dealings of the NSA.
Do you even know who the other two are ?
How did you "support" them ?
Where are they today ?
Snowden got the attention of the world.
And what we see is that we have a government that knows what's going on and condones it.
HappyTexan is completely righty; where was the support for the previous NSA whistleblowers including Kirk Wiebe, Russell Tice, William Binney or Thomas Drake?
Whistleblower Edward Snowden lived up to his oath to protect the US from enemies both foreign and domestic and sadly now he's been exiled to Russia for simply speaking truth to power. What has the United States degenerated in to when all most people want to do is engage in childish partisan bickering rather than stand up and support the people who are risking everything to preserve our tradition of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?
Snowden is the third whistleblower on the dealings of the NSA.
Do you even know who the other two are ?
How did you "support" them ?
Where are they today ?
Snowden got the attention of the world.
And what we see is that we have a government that knows what's going on and condones it.
I know about them, there are actually 3 others. They have been mentioned on the program I listen to as well. I also heard about them before the Snowden incident and before listening to this program regularly. This is why the information Snowden released is not all that new. I thought the government listened to conversations before cell phones were even all that mainstream. But the previous whistleblowers - Binney, Wiebe (had to look up the spelling on that one), and Drake.
And let's look at the facts:
Drake - gave information to a US reporter - he faced espionage charges, he was acquitted of those but plead guilty to a misdemeanor (He is still alive and not in prison).
Binney - was involved in a surveillance program that collected data of private citizens, was raided by the FBI, he was given immunity but security clearance was taken (He is still alive and not in prison).
Wiebe - was involed in the same surveillance program as Binney and was raided on the same day as Binney, he was given immunity but security clearance was taken (He is alive and not in prison).
Both Binney and Wiebe retired, they still get their government pensions as both worked directly for NSA.
So don't tell me that Snowden had no other options. All the other whistleblowers are not dead, they are not imprisoned and a story did get published in the New York Times about the surveillance programs that they made public. They stayed in the US and didn't flee like Snowden.
I support them and the above men are courageous and are heroic. They took a stand and lived with the results. Not Snowden.
HappyTexan is completely righty; where was the support for the previous NSA whistleblowers including Kirk Wiebe, Russell Tice, William Binney or Thomas Drake?
Whistleblower Edward Snowden lived up to his oath to protect the US from enemies both foreign and domestic and sadly now he's been exiled to Russia for simply speaking truth to power. What has the United States degenerated in to when all most people want to do is engage in childish partisan bickering rather than stand up and support the people who are risking everything to preserve our tradition of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?
Did you not support them when their cases were in the news. Oddly enough, I had heard of them on liberal media and not mainstream. Just like I first heard of the Wiki Leaks cases on these same media outlets.
I don't really listen or view mainstream media. If more of us would turn off Fox, MSNBC, CNN, and other media traps we would be more informed on the true news of our country. I am glad the other whistle blowers were brought up. And it is too bad that so many people haven't heard of them or thought that the NSA spying was something new.
The difference between them and Snowden is that Snowden fled the country. They did not. They also did not provide information in regards to NSA snooping on other countries to the media, only on private American citizens and I do think that is the difference. I read an article/interview....let me pull it up, about the 3 whistleblowers I mentioned and one of them even spoke about how Snowden went too far in releasing the info on NSA spying on China and how that did nothing to serve the public good here at home. Of course our government spies on China. China spies on us. As does Russia. I'm sure other countries spy on us too and we spy on them. Unfortunately, this is the world we live in and have lived in for a LONG time.
So don't tell me that Snowden had no other options. All the other whistleblowers are not dead, they are not imprisoned and a story did get published in the New York Times about the surveillance programs that they made public. They stayed in the US and didn't flee like Snowden.
I support them and the above men are courageous and are heroic. They took a stand and lived with the results. Not Snowden.
You're not being intellectually honest. Had any of the other whistleblowers exposed the level of documentation that whistleblower Edward Snowden has they'd be facing the same kind of harsh prison sentence that Bradley Manning is.
Here's a good link to help you get acquainted with the previous NSA whistleblowers who got very little attention in the corporate media. It's an informative video that's less than five minutes long.
Here's what "doing it legally" got previous whistleblowers.
Room 641A
Whistleblower tells of room at AT&T center taken over by NSA and hooked up to the main fiber via splitters.
Goes to court 2006. Government sides with AT&T and keep it buried in the courts.
Case dismissed in 2011 when Congress gives AT&T immunity and court gives retroactive grant to AT&T.
Supreme Court declined to take up this case.
So there you have it folks. Someone who tried the legal route and it went all the way to Congress and 5 years later they got granted retroactive immunity and the case got dismissed along with hundreds of other cases.
Then it was brought to the Supreme Court who denied it this past October 2012.
What the government wants kept secret will be kept secret because they have the power to create laws to keep what they are doing secret.
We have a secret court and three branches of government that do not question what they do.
I know about them, there are actually 3 others. They have been mentioned on the program I listen to as well. I also heard about them before the Snowden incident and before listening to this program regularly. This is why the information Snowden released is not all that new. I thought the government listened to conversations before cell phones were even all that mainstream. But the previous whistleblowers - Binney, Wiebe (had to look up the spelling on that one), and Drake.
And let's look at the facts:
Drake - gave information to a US reporter - he faced espionage charges, he was acquitted of those but plead guilty to a misdemeanor (He is still alive and not in prison).
Binney - was involved in a surveillance program that collected data of private citizens, was raided by the FBI, he was given immunity but security clearance was taken (He is still alive and not in prison).
Wiebe - was involed in the same surveillance program as Binney and was raided on the same day as Binney, he was given immunity but security clearance was taken (He is alive and not in prison).
Both Binney and Wiebe retired, they still get their government pensions as both worked directly for NSA.
So don't tell me that Snowden had no other options. All the other whistleblowers are not dead, they are not imprisoned and a story did get published in the New York Times about the surveillance programs that they made public. They stayed in the US and didn't flee like Snowden.
I support them and the above men are courageous and are heroic. They took a stand and lived with the results. Not Snowden.
Fact is that you didn't know about any of them until Snowden.
And while many of us figured they were listening to phone calls, few knew of the breadth and depth of what they were doing.
It turns out that it's way more invasive that anyone imagined.
Good for him. Let's hope he can slip out of Russia somehow and get to a country where he can live the rest of his life peacefully out of the reach of the US Government.
Why would he need to do that if Russia is such a great place free from the "tyranny" in the US? Maybe he'll get an education about what real tyranny is like and realize the US isn't such a bad place after all. Of course the media will never report on that.
After the whistle: Revealers of government secrets share how their lives have changed
Quote:
The former high-ranking National Security Agency analyst now sells iPhones. The top intelligence officer at the CIA lives in a motor home outside Yellowstone National Park and spends his days fly-fishing for trout. The FBI translator fled Washington for the West Coast.
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Where have all the cowboys gone?
