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1. The declaration of independence is not an official document, has no governing power in anyway, to the constitution of these United States, or our country. It was an absolution of ties to England, an emperical power, and the founders didn't want to repeat that mistake, by creating our own empire here at home.
It has been pointed out to this person many times in other threads, that the DOI was as "official" a law as any other passed by the Continental Congress at the time. He has been unable to refute it, and apparently has waited for a sufficient amount of time to pass before re-stating his disproven fallacy as fact, in this thread this time.
"It is Their Right, It is Their Duty, To Throw Off Such Government, and to provide new guards for their future security."
Jefferson wrote that into the Declaration of Independence. He was describing what people should do if their government kept doing repeated actions that took away freedom; especially when that government made it clear that they were dloing it as part of a deliberate plan.
And the Declaration was voted unanimously into law, on July 4, 1776. And remains legally binding, just as any other laws passed then or since.
Overthrowing an oppressive government, isn't just a good idea. It's the LAW.
1. The declaration of independence is not an official document, has no governing power in anyway, to the constitution of these United States, or our country. It was an absolution of ties to England, an emperical power, and the founders didn't want to repeat that mistake, by creating our own empire here at home.
This is so asinine as to boggle the mind, and just more evidence of how badly you've been educated. The Declaration of Independence was officially drafted, voted upon, approved and issued to King George under signature of the members of the Continental Congress assembled, and therefore as OFFICIAL as it gets.
Furthermore, no one has even cited or suggested that the Declaration of Independence has applicable "governing power". What the Declaration does, in the context of our discussion, is it defines very clearly the ideological view of the founders of our nation regarding what government is, what purpose it serves, what it's primary duty is, and where it gets it's power from. And that is clearly spelled out in the language of the preamble which I already posted, but will do so again for your benefit:
That to secure these rights(that's government's purpose), governments are instituted among men (that's who government is ... the people), deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed (that's where government gets it's authority .. again, from the people).
That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.
So, clearly the founders of our nation very clearly defined their views about government, and it is in direct opposition to the crap you're trying to sell.
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Originally Posted by Memphis1979
2. Until 1791/1792, there was no government in the world like ours. Where ordinary citizens had the right to vote, run, and be in the government. It did not exist.
Not that this has any relevance to the discussion, but your knowledge of history is woefully incomplete. The founders relied on a collection of previous historical governments, to form the basis for the United States, including greek and roman influences. They did not invent "republicanism". And the ordinary citizens did not vote in those days .... only land owners.
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Originally Posted by Memphis1979
3. When Jefferson spoke about "the tree of liberty...." He was speaking directly to France, a monarchy, not this government.
Hogwash again ... he was inferring a concept based on history that all governments tended to devolve into despotism, and that the "tree of liberty must be watered periodically with the blood of tyrants and patriots", or, liberty must be protected from inevitable tyranny that eventually surfaces, sometimes using force .. which comes full circle back to the 2nd Amendment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis1979
4. General/President Washington put down rebellions in this country where people took up arms against federal employees and people. This is in direct conflict with the idea that the constitution some how gives you the right to take your government by force.
And of course, you see no conflict in the fact that General Washington was the central figure fighting against his OWN government to wit the eventual victory led to the formation of a new nation called the United States of America. So, in the most supreme backward thinking contradiction, Washington rejected the very idea that the people have a right to do what the people of the colonies did against the British government of King George .... and you can apparently "house" those contradictory thoughts in your head without it exploding?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis1979
5. In no time in Americas history, has it been legal to make war on the United States. States can not hold arms, so it was worded "people" meaning people of the state. This is seen in the various drafts of the second amendment, I have posted those before, I suggest you read them, and a history book.
6. The only time in American history when Americans took up arms against Americans, legally, was during the civil war. Notice that citizens didn't take up arms and march on Washington, states seceded from the union, as was their right by law (so said the Supreme court), and when those now sovereign and separate states felt threatened by US armament build up at Ft. Sumter, which was on South Carolina's land mind you, the state struck at the government, not the people, the state with an army of the people. Its why none of the rebel heads of state were tried for treason after the war. The Supreme court repeatedly told Lincoln that he had no right to invade the south, and that the southern states could leave the union. Until the 14th amendment passed, and that solidified federal power, and weakened states to the ineffective nothings they are today.
Number 5 & 6 directly contradict each other .... 5) no time in history was it legal to ... 6) the only time in history ...
Furthermore, number 6 seems to be supporting my argument and not yours. All of this babble about the State attacking the government and not the people seems to miss the fact that the government sacrificed not one drop of blood ... because the "government", just like the "State" are conceptual abstracts. Only people fight wars, and only people shed blood.
It has been pointed out to this person many times in other threads, that the DOI was as "official" a law as any other passed by the Continental Congress at the time.
Overthrowing an oppressive government, isn't just a good idea. It's the LAW.
uh, you pointed it out. Cited no source. No case law. Its like pointing out that there is a GIANT alien space craft on the other side of the moon. . .and then challenging everyone to disprove it
Obviously hard to disprove something that is not true, never been true, and has never been used as a justification.
But again we remind you Mr. Nut
it isn't our job to disprove, its your job to prove. Why? See the alien on the other side of the moon. Logic doesn't go that direction. . .
So far you have brought no case law, or history, or anything to back up your stance.
It is you who haven't proven your fallacy, and you restating it without evidence doesn't make it true.
According to you, the following things must be true BECAUSE YOU HAVEN'T PROVEN THEY AREN'T:
Time Travel is true, from the future, and they visit today.
Aliens visit us every day, and play video games in an arcade on the east coast.
Dinosaurs still exist buried under a glacier in the land of the lost, heated by magma events
Pitch Black is a prophecy of true events, and will come true in time
I can fly, but I just don't feel like it.
CITE THE COURT CASES AND LEGAL PRECEDENT THAT SHOWS YOU CAN USE THE DECLARATION AS LAW . . .i.e. source is all we ask.
your case is insane
in what world do you think that you can take up arms against any federal insitution within these untied states and not be shot, arrested, and convicted. Do you think your lawyer would really even think that arguing 2nd amendment would give you a chance in Hades of winning. The only way you can take up arms against the united states and not get arrested is if you win.
We don't really need to argue about the declaration of independence. Can you put on a reality helmet for just 15 minutes and really tell us you think that you can go shooting up federal buildings or this president, and claim 2nd amendment privileges?
if so this argument is over. . .why waste time on fools?
The correct interpretation of the 2nd Amendment is:
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed by the federal government"
Now I've seen a lot of mud thrown around, a lot of names being called, outright denials, but no one has disproven the interpretation of the original intent of the amendment.
I'll make it simple...
If the blue inference never existed, then why does Barron v Baltimore in 1833 assert that the Bill of Rights does not apply to the state governments?
If the blue inference never existed, then why does the doctrine of Incorporation of the Bill of Rights exist in the first place?
Not surprising, considering that you have to get through President Obama's Blue Gestapo to do so, unless you own your own plane or fly with another private pilot.
Typical work of the Democrat loony left. Fort Ticonderoga was always a nice sunny place for a picnic too! really it was.... LOL There isn't really 15,000 dead unburied bodies STILL there today either.........
I want my tax monies back..... The publick skool cistum is a failuer!
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