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This is very true. I have friends who are very devote Muslims and they dislike the actions of all the radical Muslim sects just as much as any other American would.
I hear this from alot of Muslim's I run into. They have fear of extreme that keeps them from denouncing the Extremist Muslim's actions
I hear this from alot of Muslim's I run into. They have fear of extreme that keeps them from denouncing the Extremist Muslim's actions
I've never doubted this for a minute---but you'll have to agree that it gives the rest of us "infidels" little reason to be optimistic. If the "locals" are so terrified and intimidated by their own "next-door neighbors" that they are unable to speak out, how then should the REST of us feel? Sounds like a good bunch to stay FAR AWAY from.
I'm sorry, but somehow I don't take much comfort in the thought that "Don't worry--the Radical nut-cases don't want to kill ONLY us--they even want to kill MODERATE Muslims"......hmmmmmm......
I've never doubted this for a minute---but you'll have to agree that it gives the rest of us "infidels" little reason to be optimistic. If the "locals" are so terrified and intimidated by their own "next-door neighbors" that they are unable to speak out, how then should the REST of us feel? Sounds like a good bunch to stay FAR AWAY from.
I'm sorry, but somehow I don't take much comfort in the thought that "Don't worry--the Radical nut-cases don't want to kill ONLY us--they even want to kill MODERATE Muslims"......hmmmmmm......
the extreme Muslims want to kill anyone that does not exactly match the beliefs they have. May it be moderate Muslims, Christians Jews, Buddhist's, and the list goes on. So basically if your not an Extreme Muslim you need to die, in their words.
I've never doubted this for a minute---but you'll have to agree that it gives the rest of us "infidels" little reason to be optimistic. If the "locals" are so terrified and intimidated by their own "next-door neighbors" that they are unable to speak out, how then should the REST of us feel? Sounds like a good bunch to stay FAR AWAY from.
I'm sorry, but somehow I don't take much comfort in the thought that "Don't worry--the Radical nut-cases don't want to kill ONLY us--they even want to kill MODERATE Muslims"......hmmmmmm......
The term "Infidel" literally translates to "One without faith". This term along with its Islamic counterpart, Kafir was used to denote those people who did not believe in God, Allah, or Yahweh but obviously there are radical sects of Islam who teach this to mean anyone who does not recognize the prophet Mohammad or in the case of some Christians, heathens and pagans.
While in western societies there are certainly more freedoms to speak openly without fear, a good deal of what has tempered and offset Christian extremism is the prevalence and exposure to secularism. There are certainly plenty of abortion clinic bombers waiting in the winds like Eric Rudolf or other similar types, Timothy McVeigh, Jim Jones, etc... but we are free to denounce their acts openly without fear of retribution.
In Islamic countries, I have no doubts that many moderate Muslims denounce the acts of Bin Laden and his ilk but are not as free to do so, yet still some do at great risk. We also have to consider that Americans don't get a complete picture of what Middle Eastern societies are like on a day to day basis and how their actual thoughts on society and religion play a role in their daily lives. We as Americans see their society through the biased lens of one particular faith and like all humans tend to focus upon those difference rather than the likeness. I am willing to bet it is this very thing that Islamic clerics also do, I think it more human nature than anything.
As I have pointed out before, it is one thing that Reagan warned us about, that we should refrain from intervening in the Middle East due to the pervasive elements of radical fundamentalism. Something that I wish Carters National Security Adviser, Zbigniew Brezinski should have paid closer attention to.
Kudos for that post! We have lots of people here that are told what people on the other side of the world are thinking about us and they start freaking out -without ever meeting any of those poeple in actuality or really understanding anything about their lives or what they think. As has been posted before you can flavor your religious fanaticism any way you like. Best way to keep the wackos over there at bay is to not give them a reason to get the majority moderates inflamed...say by sending an army of Chrisitans into their country to kick some ass, including some blackwater punks that can kill muslims with impunity.
The term "Infidel" literally translates to "One without faith". This term along with its Islamic counterpart, Kafir was used to denote those people who did not believe in God, Allah, or Yahweh but obviously there are radical sects of Islam who teach this to mean anyone who does not recognize the prophet Mohammad or in the case of some Christians, heathens and pagans.
While in western societies there are certainly more freedoms to speak openly without fear, a good deal of what has tempered and offset Christian extremism is the prevalence and exposure to secularism. There are certainly plenty of abortion clinic bombers waiting in the winds like Eric Rudolf or other similar types, Timothy McVeigh, Jim Jones, etc... but we are free to denounce their acts openly without fear of retribution.
In Islamic countries, I have no doubts that many moderate Muslims denounce the acts of Bin Laden and his ilk but are not as free to do so, yet still some do at great risk. We also have to consider that Americans don't get a complete picture of what Middle Eastern societies are like on a day to day basis and how their actual thoughts on society and religion play a role in their daily lives. We as Americans see their society through the biased lens of one particular faith and like all humans tend to focus upon those difference rather than the likeness. I am willing to bet it is this very thing that Islamic clerics also do, I think it more human nature than anything.
As I have pointed out before, it is one thing that Reagan warned us about, that we should refrain from intervening in the Middle East due to the pervasive elements of radical fundamentalism. Something that I wish Carters National Security Adviser, Zbigniew Brezinski should have paid closer attention to.
Points well taken. As you seem to allude, a purely "Christian" theocracy probably WOULD be a harsh place--in fact we've SEEN some of these---(the Pilgrims of Massachusetts, most of Medieval Europe, Franco's Spain (maybe ?)perhaps Quebec, or Ireland (?) 50 years ago...not much of a place for "unbelievers" in any of these societies).
However, as you ALSO allude, we no longer have much of an instance anywhere on earth of a "Christian theocracy". No more burning pagans at the stake, public floggings of adulterers, banning of witches...etc. So at this point, some of this becomes a 'moot point', because for whatever reason,(probably mostly, as you say, due to secularism), the "West" simply DOES allow the freedom of dissent, and the ability to denounce our own zealots, that the Islamic world has yet to allow. And that's my point. I don't so much care about the reasons, as much as the practical realities. And practically speaking, there's no real comparison between the radical elements in the West, and their place in society, and the radical elements of Islam. I'm not sure we could call Timothy McVeigh a "Christian wacko", though of course Jim Jones certainly was. But Jones also enjoyed virtually ZERO public approval in "his" society.....
A great religion (gauged by number of converts) can go one of two ways: convert by the sword (Islam - God hates you unless you convert, so convert or die), or tell everyone what they want to hear thereby bringing hope to the wretched (Christianity - God loves you, just believe in Jesus's sacrifice (yes, he was God, too) and eat the cracker and you'll have an eternal heavenly reward).
Last edited by ParkTwain; 11-22-2007 at 03:27 PM..
And practically speaking, there's no real comparison between the radical elements in the West, and their place in society, and the radical elements of Islam. I'm not sure we could call Timothy McVeigh a "Christian wacko", though of course Jim Jones certainly was. But Jones also enjoyed virtually ZERO public approval in "his" society.....
I suppose practically you are certainly correct, this much I don't dispute but in addition to the actual and physical, there is the notion of perceptions. Perception can be every bit as powerful when dealing with people who hold their faith next to life itself, regardless of that faith.
While we don't have Christian suicide bombers running into mosque, examine for a moment the commentary our President has made and how this can be seen from the Muslim perspective regardless of how well meaning they may have been.
I for one don't find it very soothing to have the most powerful man in American having conversations with God. Be it divine intervention, arrogance, ego, or hallucination, take your pick but for my person, a straight jacket would be more appropriate.
God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them. -- George W Bush, (Haaretz.com: June 27, 2003)
This crusade, this war on terrorism is going to take a while. -- George W Bush, Reuters: September 21, 2001 (Bush later apologized for this remark)
Our new faith-based laws have removed government as a roadblock to people of faith who hear the call. -- George W Bush, quoted from Aaron Latham, "How George W Found God," George Magazine, September, 2000
I've heard the call. I believe God wants me to run for president. -- George W Bush, quoted from Aaron Latham, "How George W Found God," George Magazine, September, 2000
I suppose practically you are certainly correct, this much I don't dispute but in addition to the actual and physical, there is the notion of perceptions. Perception can be every bit as powerful when dealing with people who hold their faith next to life itself, regardless of that faith.
While we don't have Christian suicide bombers running into mosque, examine for a moment the commentary our President has made and how this can be seen from the Muslim perspective regardless of how well meaning they may have been.
I for one don't find it very soothing to have the most powerful man in American having conversations with God. Be it divine intervention, arrogance, ego, or hallucination, take your pick but for my person, a straight jacket would be more appropriate.
God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them. -- George W Bush, (Haaretz.com: June 27, 2003)
This crusade, this war on terrorism is going to take a while. -- George W Bush, Reuters: September 21, 2001 (Bush later apologized for this remark)
Our new faith-based laws have removed government as a roadblock to people of faith who hear the call. -- George W Bush, quoted from Aaron Latham, "How George W Found God," George Magazine, September, 2000
I've heard the call. I believe God wants me to run for president. -- George W Bush, quoted from Aaron Latham, "How George W Found God," George Magazine, September, 2000
Quite honestly, I hadn't been aware of these particular quotes. Yes, it certainly does have a bit of an "off-putting" quality, even to us "sophisticated" westerners....and as you say, it must sound several degrees of magnitude worse to those on "the other side".
While I privately DO have a belief, a hope and a confidence in MY God, and do try to live my life according to His principles, I must admit that "Dubya's" meanderings show, at LEAST, a monumental inappropriateness, coming as they do from the leader of the "Free World", speaking "on the record". The man seems to be suirrounded by an impenetrable force-field of obliviousness, which serves to keep him absolutely IMMUNE from any sense of what to say, and when to say it, and what NOT to say. It's almost like "cluelessness" taken to the level of a "fine art"....I don't know how his "handlers" allow this to happen....but they do, and do so repeatedly.
Quite honestly, I hadn't been aware of these particular quotes. Yes, it certainly does have a bit of an "off-putting" quality, even to us "sophisticated" westerners....and as you say, it must sound several degrees of magnitude worse to those on "the other side".
While I privately DO have a belief, a hope and a confidence in MY God, and do try to live my life according to His principles, I must admit that "Dubya's" meanderings show, at LEAST, a monumental inappropriateness, coming as they do from the leader of the "Free World", speaking "on the record". The man seems to be suirrounded by an impenetrable force-field of obliviousness, which serves to keep him absolutely IMMUNE from any sense of what to say, and when to say it, and what NOT to say. It's almost like "cluelessness" taken to the level of a "fine art"....I don't know how his "handlers" allow this to happen....but they do, and do so repeatedly.
Well I suspect that Bush very well may be well meaning but he is grossly tacky in his choice of context.
For instance, when I ask people to produce the WMD's that were touted as our reason to enter into war with Iraq, and one of the most common responses is, "well everyone, even Clinton believed they had them". Well they didn't and this proves to me personally where a belief in something is quite different than the tangible fact of something.
What if tomorrow Bush said he believed that the people of South Dakota had WMD's and was going to use tactical nukes to stop them. Certainly absurd, but coming from a man who already claims that he converses back and forth with God himself, this frightens me that it is more possible than my winning the lotto. Now if I were a Muslim would I be more apt to follow to follow the peacenik side of Islam or the kooky radical cleric who promises to stop this madman from the west.
The most sad bit of all of this is that there are millions of decent religious people of all faiths who will be looked upon by other faiths with a certain aura of distrust, incredulity, or condescendingly because despite their respected faiths usually preaching some level of tolerance, in practice it is the first lesson of religion that is lost.
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