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The fact that these types of discussions end up on tangents with no real solutions being proposed only supports my claim that continued debate on these issues is now counterproductive.
I think you missed the point. The Bible is a ridiculous source of morals or ethics unless you only pick and choose those select few you would like to take literally, and dismiss all the ones you don't like as either a product of the era or misinterpretation.
I don't think I missed the point. I think you missed the point. This story has nothing to do with the Mosaic Law. Otherwise, point me to the Judaic commandment that sanctions cannibalism.
You're the one who's selectively taking things literally. That's what's so funny here. So, how does showing that the Bible tells a story about cannibalism somehow mitigate some argument about homosexual behavior?
I don't think I missed the point. I think you missed the point. This story has nothing to do with the Mosaic Law. Otherwise, point me to the Judaic commandment that sanctions cannibalism.
You're the one who's selectively taking things literally. That's what's so funny here. So, how does showing that the Bible tells a story about cannibalism somehow mitigate some argument about homosexual behavior?
Because the Bible also says: "Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven." Luke 6:37
Who are you to judge others and condemn them? Only God can do that according to Bible, yet theist forget this verse when it's convenient to them. You pick and choose what morals suite you from the Bible depending on the point you're trying to make. You either choose all them or none of them. The only problem is that you can't choose all them, because most contradict each other. The only reasonable choice then, is to not rely on ridiculous scripture for moral guidance.
Where did I say it was? I am only quoting scripture, don't get mad at me and put words in my mouth. I never even mentioned Judiasm. It's not my fault your scripture is ridiculous. If a science text book said the Earth was flat, the book would immediately be discredited as junk by the science community. Don't preach your scripture if you can't stand by all of it.
How can I be a neo-Nazi if I'm a mestizo Latino? I have no wish to exterminate myself, or any other non Aryan race. I'm not anti-Semite, I don't hate Jews nor do I wish any harm to come upon them or any other race for that matter. What I am against are fairy tail beliefs being spun as truth, that includes all religions. When you result to insults in argument, you've already lost.
Where did I say this was the Law of Moses in the Torah? All I said, the Bible says this, and thereby condones it, therefore we must change our laws to agree with the Bible.
I'm not preaching scripture. You are. I'm asking you how you think this is a good argument that somehow makes a point about something. And then you claim you're only quoting scripture - but that's not preaching scripture? So, did you say it was or did you say it wasn't?
Orthodox Jews don't practice cannibalism AND they believe homosexuality is forbidden. Your argument blows up on the launch pad.
You never mentioned Judaism? What are you talking about? You're preaching from Jewish scriptures.
How can you be a Nazi if you are Latin? What does this mean? It's like asking: How can you be a librarian if you are Latin? How can you be a dentist if you are Latin? How can you like ice cream if you are Latin? I mean, this is a nonsensical question. You don't think there were any Nazi Sympathizers in the Latin world?
How do I know your beliefs aren't fairy tales. Because you claim not to believe fairy tales? That's an argument?
I'm insulting you? How is that? I asked you why you resort to making arguments that sound like typical anti-Semitic propaganda rants, and you tell me I'm insulting you? That's hilarious. That's like you telling me I'm insulting you when I call you out for making watermelon jokes about black people.
What did you mean, "Where did I say this is the Law of Moses"? You're equating some woman who resorted to cannibalism during a famine in Samaria in the minor prophets, (which has nothing to do with the Law) to the orthodox prohibition against homosexual behavior in the Torah, as if they somehow delegitimize or legitimize one another as Law. Why?
Because the Bible also says: "Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven." Luke 6:37
Who are you to judge others and condemn them? Only God can do that according to Bible, yet theist forget this verse when it's convenient to them. You pick and choose what morals suite you from the Bible depending on the point you're trying to make. You either choose all them or none of them. The only problem is that you can't choose all them, because most contradict each other. The only reasonable choice then, is to not rely on ridiculous scripture for moral guidance.
Now you're quoting the Bible again to tell me.... what.... I should be obeying the Bible or disregarding it? You have no coherence in your argument. Don't quote the Bible - why would you?
Show me examples of orthodox Jews who practice cannibalism as a part of the Mosaic Law, while hypocritically condemning homosexual behavior, or vice versa. That's ALL I want to hear from you.
The point is, your comparison is ridiculous and your take on scripture is ludicrous. I mean, why should I rely on YOUR moral guidance? Is it any better than that of Moses?
I'm not preaching scripture. You are. I'm asking you how you think this is a good argument that somehow makes a point about something. And then you claim you're only quoting scripture - but that's not preaching scripture? So, did you say it was or did you say it wasn't?
Orthodox Jews don't practice cannibalism AND they believe homosexuality is forbidden. Your argument blows up on the launch pad.
You never mentioned Judaism? What are you talking about? You're preaching from Jewish scriptures.
How can you be a Nazi if you are Latin? What does this mean? It's like asking: How can you be a librarian if you are Latin? How can you be a dentist if you are Latin? How can you like ice cream if you are Latin? I mean, this is a nonsensical question. You don't think there were any Nazi Sympathizers in the Latin world?
How do I know your beliefs aren't fairy tales. Because you claim not to believe fairy tales? That's an argument?
I'm insulting you? How is that? I asked you why you resort to making arguments that sound like typical anti-Semitic propaganda rants, and you tell me I'm insulting you? That's hilarious. That's like you telling me I'm insulting you when I call you out for making watermelon jokes about black people.
What did you mean, "Where did I say this is the Law of Moses"? You're equating some woman who resorted to cannibalism during a famine in Samaria in the minor prophets, (which has nothing to do with the Law) to the orthodox prohibition against homosexual behavior in the Torah, as if they somehow delegitimize or legitimize one another as Law. Why?
I'm quoting scripture to prove how ridiculous it is, not to preach it or spread its word. There's a difference, if you can't understand that, that it's useless to argue with you.
No, you prove my point. You're scripture condones cannibalism and forbids homosexuality. You believe cannibalism is immoral, so obviously you're only picking to follow the parts of your scripture you like.
You analogies make zero sense. You can be Aryan as well as a librarian, you can be Aryan as well as a dentist, you can be Aryan and like ice cream. HOWEVER, you CANNOT be Aryan and be a Mestizo Latino. Nazi's wanted to exterminate everyone who was not Aryan not only Jews. In the future, please make reasonable analogies if you want to carry out a logical discussion, otherwise I'm not going to waste my time debating you if you can't come up with logical counter arguments. While it would be stupid of me to say there there never was a mestizo who a Nazi-sympathizer, however, any latino who was/is a Nazi sympathizer was an ignorant fool who didn't understand what the Nazi's were trying accomplish. That is why being called a Nazi sympathizer is an insult.
I am quoting ridiculous verses from the Christian Bible, which happens to share much of it's scripture with Jewish scriptures. I am not singling out Jews, that is just your paranoia. My statements are as much against the Christian faith as it is against the Jewish faith. However, my statements are only attack on ridiculous faith, not an attack or condemnation of the people themselves. Please don't consider yourself so important that somehow my statements are only an attack Jewish people, rather than attack on all religions based on blind faith in scripture.
I never mentioned the "Law of Moses" or the Torrah because I'm familiar with the Christian Bible, and that is where I'm getting my quotes. They share many of the same scripture, so don't get all bent out of shape and put words in my mouth. That being said, regardless of your circumstances there is no excuse for scriptures condoning the practice of cannibalism of children, no matter how desperate. Also, if your Law Moses is also your be all, end all for all moral rights and wrongs, why not just get rid of the rest of scriptures that have nothing to do with it?
Now you're quoting the Bible again to tell me.... what.... I should be obeying the Bible or disregarding it? You have no coherence in your argument. Don't quote the Bible - why would you?
Show me examples of orthodox Jews who practice cannibalism as a part of the Mosaic Law, while hypocritically condemning homosexual behavior, or vice versa. That's ALL I want to hear from you.
The point is, your comparison is ridiculous and your take on scripture is ludicrous. I mean, why should I rely on YOUR moral guidance? Is it any better than that of Moses?
No, I am quoting to you the Bible to show you how the Bible contradicts itself. An rational person provides evidence for their arguments. My first quote was an example of some of the ridiculous things in the Bible, you bought up the Law of Moses and homosexuality, so I quoted a part of the bible that contradicts you. If you do not understand what evidence is, then I can not help you, I'm sorry.
You seem to have and incorrect definition of the word hypocrite. It means to say one thing and do the opposite. The scriptures condone (approve of) cannibalism in certain conditions, and condemn homosexuality. By your own admission, you believe cannibalism is immoral and don't condone it, you also condemn homosexuality. While you claim to be religious, you only agree with one of these two aspects of your scriptures, that is hypocrisy. Not to mention the fact that many aspects of the Law of Moses contradicts the verses about forgiving and not judging others.
I am not asking you to believe in my moral guidance, nor do I expect you to. I am merely pointing out the fallacies and hypocrisy in believing/relying on scripture for moral guidance. If it wasn't for the fact that religious hypocrisy is cause of so much strife in the world, especially in our country (specifically radical Christians,) I honestly wouldn't care as much about this topic. However, as long as religious zealots keep trying to control our nations polices based on their scriptures, every atheist should use any opportunity they have to expose religion as the fairy tail it is.
Other than the religious reasons and impossible natural reproduction that have already been explained, I'm of the mindset that sexual orientation is on a continuum as follows.
Many people are completely straight, others are primarily straight but may have an occasional homosexual thought/fling, some people may prefer one way but regularly have sex with the opposite of the preference, some are completely bisexual and prefer either sex equally, others are primarily homosexual but may have a heterosexual relationship for social reasons or just to try it out, others are purely homosexual.
Life has likely always been this way. I would say that most people have had at least one homosexual fantasy in their lives. They may have never acted on it, but the thought was there. I'm sure there have been a lot of men fooling around hunting, fishing, on farms, in wars, in mines, etc, throughout history, as well as women fooling around in homes. The only difference, in my opinion, is that there was more stigma attached and much more was hidden. Due to limits in technology, all you had was hearsay, and little to nothing could be proven unless caught in the fact.
I grew up in a traditional, but not extremely religious, family and sexual orientation was something that just wasn't discussed - you were assumed straight and it wasn't comfortable kitchen table talk. Yet I remember being in middle school and finding one of my male classmates to be extremely attractive, and fantasized about him for years. I prefer women, and have had healthy relationships with women, but have occasionally been attracted to a man (maybe one seriously per year). I'm one of those people that lands on the continuum of "more straight, but occasionally gay." I've never mentioned any of this to my family and don't intend to because sexual orientation is way, way down the list of traits that define me. It's always been insignificant to what people know me for, and unless you are an activist, I feel that many people make too much ado over what should be essentially private business.
It's something that I'm comfortable with these days. I've seen A LOT of discrimination against people who fit gay stereotypes (even though they may not even be gay) here in this extremely backward and Baptist area, and it often leads to mental illness and, in a case of a long time friend, I believe it contributed to his suicide. As someone who has primarily self-identified as a political conservative for the last five years, I find it disgusting how the religious movement has partly defined conservatism as opposing homosexuality, even though conservatism typically implies minimal intervention by government and law into one's private affairs.
Even if I had no homosexual inclination, I couldn't support the local mainline given what I've seen. Moreover, the most virulent anti-homosexual activists are often WAY overcompensating for what goes on behind closed doors. The father of my best friend in high school was a Baptist pastor and I always thought he was homosexual, but he was extremely anti-gay in public. As fate would have it, he was in his early 50s and gets caught with a 16 year old boy. Because the guy was popular in the community, he never went to jail - his gorgeous wife never even divorced him. I don't think he's a "bad guy," but he has problems he needs to deal with. I fully believe the way he grew up and the expectations placed upon on him led to his "deviant" behaviors."
Bottom line is that I think the religious establishment needs to back off and allow private sexual business to be private business. It's fine to have your views and reach out to those who you feel are in need of help, but do not needlessly badger, out, or disrupt their lives. On the flip side, there are elements of the homosexual community that really want to shove this down the throats of traditional people who mind their own business and won't badger those who conduct their sexual business in private.
I think the legal system should acknowledge only civil unions for all couples that confer the legal and civil benefits of marriage today. If a couple wants a religious marriage, that should be performed by ministers who are free to act as they choose, and both straight and gay couples could "shop around" to find something that is agreeable. For the record, I'm for a liberalizing of most sex laws, including incest laws and even some statutory rape laws, especially for parties over 16 years of age. Most of all, can we just get this done and quit wasting our time on tangential issues when the economy is still in the toilet?
I agree about civil unions, but they need to be revamped to include ALL the benifits of *marriage* which it does not currently do. It would have to be recognized in all the ways that the term 'marriage' is. And let religion just deal as it chooses. There should be plenty of places for anyone who wants to marry to marry.
I disagree about incest as most girls have been 'conditioned' before the act, some for years. It's not an even playing field. And maybe the rape statures should be rethought, but not discarded. This isn't the 1800's where sixteen year olds might well be mothers already. Adults who seek out teens should not get a free pass.
But its time to get out of people's personal lives, and let adults deal with other adults however they feel drawn to so long as no harm is being done in the process. There's plenty of that to keep us occupied without the distraction.
I'm quoting scripture to prove how ridiculous it is, not to preach it or spread its word. There's a difference, if you can't understand that, that it's useless to argue with you.
No kidding. That's why I'm asking you why you're quoting scripture to disprove scripture. It's stupid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astorian31
No, you prove my point. You're scripture condones cannibalism and forbids homosexuality. You believe cannibalism is immoral, so obviously you're only picking to follow the parts of your scripture you like.
No. You prove my point that you're an idiot. Why won't you answer my question? Why do you continue to disregard it? You're ignorant and you're ranting Leftist talking points about a book you've never even read, much less studied.
Again I ask: My one question: Can you demonstrate that Judaism sanctions cannibalism? That's all I want to know.
You're an anti-Semite. I don't give a hoot what color you are. Who cares about Nazis? Way to miss another OBVIOUS point. You don't have to be a Nazi to be an anti-Semite.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astorian31
I am quoting ridiculous verses from the Christian Bible, which happens to share much of it's scripture with Jewish scriptures. I am not singling out Jews, that is just your paranoia. My statements are as much against the Christian faith as it is against the Jewish faith. However, my statements are only attack on ridiculous faith, not an attack or condemnation of the people themselves. Please don't consider yourself so important that somehow my statements are only an attack Jewish people, rather than attack on all religions based on blind faith in scripture.
You don't know what you're quoting. I bet you've never even read the entire passage of scripture from 2 Kings that you are quoting out of context as some sort of "commandment" to practice cannibalism. I'd bet you can't even read at a 6th grade level, much less understand this passage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astorian31
I never mentioned the "Law of Moses" or the Torrah because I'm familiar with the Christian Bible, and that is where I'm getting my quotes. They share many of the same scripture, so don't get all bent out of shape and put words in my mouth. That being said, regardless of your circumstances there is no excuse for scriptures condoning the practice of cannibalism of children, no matter how desperate. Also, if your Law Moses is also your be all, end all for all moral rights and wrongs, why not just get rid of the rest of scriptures that have nothing to do with it?
What are you talking about? Idiot. You don't even understand enough about the book you are talking about to understand the Law of Moses is EXACTLY what you are talking about.
Shut up and go get educated, you boring blowhard. You're nothing but an ignorant fascist masquerading as some sort of "intellect".
Basically because of core beliefs as sinful and other just wrong individually. Much like adultery not seen as just another preference in relationship. Attraction is not the sin or wrong; its the act itself.
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I am only quoting scripture, don't get mad at me and put words in my mouth. I never even mentioned Judiasm. It's not my fault your scripture is ridiculous. If a science text book said the Earth was flat, the book would immediately be discredited as junk by the science community. Don't preach your scripture if you can't stand by all of it. 
All I said, the Bible says this, and thereby condones it, therefore we must change our laws to agree with the Bible. 
