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It boils down to why is it that someone that pays millions of dollars in taxes and donates millions of more dollars to help the needy/education/arts/science/health is not paying their "fair share"?
Donations are not taxes. Donations don't maintain your roads or local government.
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Originally Posted by shooting4life
While another person gets a refund from another tax payer even though they didn't pay a single penny in income tax.
Please tell me again what is "fair"
....like I said... people who aren't "paying a penny" in income tax do pay income, sales, and property taxes, just like everyone else. Their net income tax is negative because they are the beneficiaries of redistribution, not because they don't contribute. They also contribute very substantially to sales, excise, and property taxes.
Your little 47% talking points are both ill-mannered and devoid of substance. Anyone in the United States who earns income pays taxes.
Greatest myth/lie of politics in the last 100 years imho.
and before the "but David Stockman, Reagan's budget director, said 'trickle down' in an interview" rebuttal, Dr. Sowell was kind enough to crush that as well - trickle down ignorance
We now return you to your straw man fallacy circle jerk.....
Excellent.
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Originally Posted by ErikBEggs
Does it really matter who the author is?
Numbers are not opinions.
Yes, it does matter who the author is, especially when the author is not the original or primary source.
That is why I provide original sources.
It also matters how Income is defined.
Income in general is the combination of Wages/Salaries and Personal Choices, but we have to see the original source documents to be certain.
If people refuse to make the correct Personal Choices, then their Income will be less. Those who make the best Personal Choices will have higher Incomes.
Percentage of income. What is not fair about that? Everyone's financial situation is different. If all citizens are contributing 20% of their income towards taxes, they are all contributing what they can to society equally.
property taxes, sales taxes, and other various taxes go to the state and local, not the federal government. And someone who pays $500 a year in property taxes, isnt nearly as contributing the same as someone who pays $25,000. The fact that the percentage of their income is higher because they sit back and collect welfare, isnt really a value I'd be high 5ng considering that income comes from the others who actually are paying.
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Originally Posted by ErikBEggs
Don't bring up corporate taxes at all. Corporate taxes have taken a nosedive over time. Corporations aren't paying diddly in taxes.
yes you did, the chart shows it, and thats complete bull **** as well
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Originally Posted by ErikBEggs
I know the difference between wealth and income.
Explain to me why a capital gain should be taxed less than an earned dollar?
It shouldnt, and here is where we differ.. I think taxes on earned dollars should be lower, where you want to for some godly reason, raise everyone elses taxes because they have earned wealth, and use it to create income.
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Originally Posted by ErikBEggs
Explain to me how billionaires would pay themselves $0 in earned income to reap capital gains is a fair, sustainable tax policy.
Whats stopping you from realizing capital gains income?
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Originally Posted by ErikBEggs
Furthermore, the barrier of entry to these tax loopholes is very dependent on income. Minimum wage workers don't have money to invest and get these lower tax rates, yet they got socked by sales and property taxes.
Ohh here comes the sob story.. the poor me, people who dont pay **** in income taxes, are being denied the opportunity to invest and pay taxes, and because of that, other people who do pay taxes, need to see their taxes raised..
Really? Thats your argument?
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Originally Posted by ErikBEggs
The right wing thinks this tidy little arrangement is ok.
And once again we see who the true traitors to this country are where they do not care about the best interests of this nation but only the best interests of they and their cronies wallets all with big governments blessings
What is the best interest of the nation? Who decides it, such that it becomes one and the same with government in order for opposing it to become an act of treason? Where is this best interest written down? Which public law am I in violation of for acting contrary to it, and what are the specific punishments pursuant to that code?
If there is no such official best interest, then you are declaring all economic viewpoints counter to yours to be treason, thus declaring your economic viewpoint to be the law of the land. This is the thinking of dictators, tyrants and madmen. I can say that because every famous movement in the past that overthrew governments and established the various dictatorships and totalitarian regimes we all know so well, also declared some national best interest, and any opposed to said best interest were traitors and criminals. Your little rant there may as well cite Lenin, since it reads like straight plagiarism of October/February Revolution propaganda.
Citizens of the United States, at least according to the Declaration of Independence, have the inalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Odd that Jefferson forgot to include "and oh yeah, opposition to an economic best interest is treason!"
Paying less in taxes = more freedom, by definition. You are more free to keep that which you earn via that which you own, namely your own self and that which your efforts/talents create that has value. Being able to buy goods and services from anywhere on the planet (minus places like Cuba and Iran where we are not legally allowed to buy because they make Uncle Sam angry) in search of the greatest personal value = more freedom, by definition. That these examples of more freedom do not universally benefit exactly everyone is an inherent quality of freedom itself. Given infinitely different inputs, a properly functioning machine will produce infinitely different outputs. Micro$oft's competitors probably think it unfair that Micro$oft dominates desktop OS land and enjoys economies of scale, but the billion+ people who sit in front of a Micro$oft OS every single day made a choice to purchase that particular product. No, those billion+ choices did not have the best interest of Micro$oft's competitors in mind, but neither Micro$oft nor their competitors got to decide what each and every person's best interests were, they all just make products and put them on a shelf.
The point being, 317 million people decide their best interests every single day, hundreds of times each day. Who are you to a) decide what their "real" best interest is and b) declare them traitors for disagreeing with word or action?
Percentage of income. What is not fair about that? Everyone's financial situation is different. If all citizens are contributing 20% of their income towards taxes, they are all contributing what they can to society equally.
Don't bring up corporate taxes at all. Corporate taxes have taken a nosedive over time. Corporations aren't paying diddly in taxes.
I know the difference between wealth and income.
Explain to me why a capital gain should be taxed less than an earned dollar?
Explain to me how billionaires would pay themselves $0 in earned income to reap capital gains is a fair, sustainable tax policy.
Furthermore, the barrier of entry to these tax loopholes is very dependent on income. Minimum wage workers don't have money to invest and get these lower tax rates, yet they got socked by sales and property taxes.
The right wing thinks this tidy little arrangement is ok.
It address things like how capital gains are also taxed at a corporate level, encourage investment/saving, are riskier than income since you can take a loss investing, and inflation amoung other issues.
The US already has one of highest capital gains rates in the world.
Donations are not taxes. Donations don't maintain your roads or local government.
No but I can guarantee you that my local school very much appreciate the hundreds of thousands of sheets of paper I've donated over the last year, and even the $70K school playground I donated last week which the local taxpayers dont need to pay for..
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Originally Posted by ErikBEggs
...like I said... people who aren't "paying a penny" in income tax do pay income, sales, and property taxes, just like everyone else. Their net income tax is negative because they are the beneficiaries of redistribution, not because they don't contribute. They also contribute very substantially to sales, excise, and property taxes.
Your little 47% talking points are both ill-mannered and devoid of substance. Anyone in the United States who earns income pays taxes.
if they take $10K a year in welfare, and then pay $2K a year in taxes, they arent contributing.
property taxes, sales taxes, and other various taxes go to the state, not the federal government. And someone who pays $500 a year in property taxes, arent nearly as contributing the same as someone who pays $25,000. The fact that the percentage of their income is higher because they sit back and collect welfare, isnt really a value I'd be high 5ng considering that income comes from the others who actually are paying.
Welfare strawman. Welfare has nothing to do with the low income paying sales and property taxes.
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Originally Posted by pghquest
yes you did, the chart shows it, and thats complete bull **** as well
....nothing better to say, huh?
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Originally Posted by pghquest
It shouldnt, and here is where we differ.. I think taxes on earned dollars should be lower, where you want to for some godly reason, raise everyone elses taxes because they have earned wealth, and use it to create income.
I never said that at all. I simply want the capital gains taxes to be equal to earned income, since the former obviously benefits the wealthy at the expense of everyone else. Judging by my graphs in the OP, it seems to be working to do just that.
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Originally Posted by pghquest
Whats stopping you from realizing capital gains income?
You don't know what my portfolio looks like, so don't bring it into debate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest
Ohh here comes the sob story.. the poor me, people who dont pay **** in income taxes, are being denied the opportunity to invest and thus pay more taxes than they currently pay.. and because of that, other people who do pay it, need to see their taxes raised..
Really? Thats your argument?
It doesn't make it any less true, and like I said don't make it personal.
People with lower incomes are getting absolutely hammered in this country and the wealthy have never had it so well off. Need a refresher?
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Originally Posted by pghquest
I'm not the one making the argument, you are..
The argument stands. Not a single right-winger has justified the trickle down failure. We get the same regurgitation of "lower taxes and regulations." It is clear that lower taxes simply mean more wealth for the 1% and less for everyone else.
Donations are not taxes. Donations don't maintain your roads or local government.
....like I said... people who aren't "paying a penny" in income tax do pay income, sales, and property taxes, just like everyone else. Their net income tax is negative because they are the beneficiaries of redistribution, not because they don't contribute. They also contribute very substantially to sales, excise, and property taxes.
Your little 47% talking points are both ill-mannered and devoid of substance. Anyone in the United States who earns income pays taxes.
They don't pay income taxes, that is what we are talking about.
Plus those "donations" that you say don't build the roads but they feed the hungry, comfort the ill, protect the arts, shelter the homeless, protect the environment and find the cures among countless other benifits. You should appreciate the billions and billions of dollars those "evil" rich people give back to society.
The government is not the answer for every problem.
Welfare strawman. Welfare has nothing to do with the low income paying sales and property taxes.
It sure in the hell does considering once again 51% of the nation pays ZERO income taxes. When others pay an income tax and that money gets redistributed to those who dont pay ****, you cant then whine that a percentage of that FREE money is then taken and given back to society and pretend its because they are being productive.
Hey Erik, when we have a nation where a large percentage of the country lives on welfare, how exactly are you expecting their income and wealth to increase?
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Originally Posted by ErikBEggs
....nothing better to say, huh?
I dont need anything better to say, YOU posted the cahrt but dont even know whats on it..
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Originally Posted by ErikBEggs
I never said that at all. I simply want the capital gains taxes to be equal to earned income, since the former obviously benefits the wealthy at the expense of everyone else. Judging by my graphs in the OP, it seems to be working to do just that.
There is no expense of everyone else.. Can you cite for me an example of where you've called for tax cuts, I mean just so I dont call bull **** on your posting..
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Originally Posted by ErikBEggs
You don't know what my portfolio looks like, so don't bring it into debate.
I dont really care what it looks like considering your "portfolio" doesnt change facts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikBEggs
It doesn't make it any less true, and like I said don't make it personal.
it just makes the argument completely asinine
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikBEggs
People with lower incomes are getting absolutely hammered in this country and the wealthy have never had it so well off. Need a refresher?
How are people who not only pay ZERO in income taxes, but also get all sorts of refunds and handouts, getting hammered because of the wealthy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikBEggs
The argument stands. Not a single right-winger has justified the trickle down failure. We get the same regurgitation of "lower taxes and regulations." It is clear that lower taxes simply mean more wealth for the 1% and less for everyone else.
Yes because you claim its not true means its not true.
But lets for the sake of laughing in your face, even pretend what you said is true. Tell me how person A who pays $0 in taxes, means someone else makes less money.. Connect the dots for me..
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