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The free market is not the answer to everything. Human rights are not a free market product.
Nor are they are function of government. Human rights are a product of existence. The right to believe as you wish and to associate with whom you wish are inherent human rights. The right to engage in trade with someone else is not an inherent human right because it requires participation of at least one other person, and none of us owns a right to someone else's participation in an activity.
I am not forced to patronize any business, nor should any business be forced to serve me. We should both retain the right to voluntary association and to enter into trade or not according to our own self-interests. It's not very complicated.
And you are not talking about human rights. You are talking about treatment within the marketplace, in which the market does and should set the rules. And it does, better than government as well. Already, businesses are putting up signs in windows all across Indiana that say they proudly serve everyone. Pretty easy. Join the club or lose market share. And all that happened before the ink from Pence's signature was dry.
So it's OK for businesses such as Curves to discriminate against people based on gender if they're a "private membership club"? All the lefties here have to get their positions straight.
Do you want the government to force businesses to serve all people or not? You can't make rules for one group, and then deny another group just because they're white or male.
If the business is a private club, like gyms (you pay a membership fee) cigar clubs (have to be a member to enter) golf clubs (membership only) then it is a private club. If the bakery is a membership only club then it can refuse service too.
If the business is a private club, like gyms (you pay a membership fee) cigar clubs (have to be a member to enter) golf clubs (membership only) then it is a private club. If the bakery is a membership only club then it can refuse service too.
So if you need to pay a membership, then it's OK to refuse service to people based on race, gender, or sexuality? But if no membership is needed, then it's not OK?
I suppose if my Costco said next week that women are no longer allowed to use their store, liberals would be OK with that because, after all, it's a membership club so they're free to discriminate? Yeah... probably not.
Nor are they are function of government. Human rights are a product of existence. The right to believe as you wish and to associate with whom you wish are inherent human rights. The right to engage in trade with someone else is not an inherent human right because it requires participation of at least one other person, and none of us owns a right to someone else's participation in an activity.
I am not forced to patronize any business, nor should any business be forced to serve me. We should both retain the right to voluntary association and to enter into trade or not according to our own self-interests. It's not very complicated.
And you are not talking about human rights. You are talking about treatment within the marketplace, in which the market does and should set the rules. And it does, better than government as well. Already, businesses are putting up signs in windows all across Indiana that say they proudly serve everyone. Pretty easy. Join the club or lose market share. And all that happened before the ink from Pence's signature was dry.
In a nation of laws,it is the function of government to create and enforce those laws. Anarchy is not the answer.
There is no tyranny in creating laws that create equality for all. There is tyranny in laws that support discrimination.
The right to believe what you want isn't being infringed here. It the right of all citizens to be treated equally.
Allowing one group to discriminate against others opens a pandora's box of issues.
The major fault of your argument is that you speak as if we live in a vacuum. Society exists and has laws so that it can exist. Without it, you wouldn't be using a device to voice your views on the internet.
If you are so pro free market and anti-government and anti-laws that " infringe " on businesses, I invite you to a world where your uninspected and non-regulated food supply awaits you.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volobjectitarian
I'm a libertarian. If practicality (i.e. the trains running on time as practical ends justify any and all tyrannical means) trumped ideology for me, I'd be a Republican or Democrat, where logical inconsistency based on whim and current opinion is not just normal, but en vogue.
I oppose tyranny, even when it achieves tight train schedules and well paved roads. The free market can and already is dealing with those rare businesses who deny service on religious grounds. It might be less practical than Big Brother's diktat, but it's better.
You have a right to your opinion.
We obviously disagree on this issue, but i hope one day you can at least understand why people see this as a grounds to discriminate and that is why they see it as wrong,not because they want government to control people(which seems to be what you are arguing).
So if you need to pay a membership, then it's OK to refuse service to people based on race, gender, or sexuality? But if no membership is needed, then it's not OK?
I suppose if my Costco said next week that women are no longer allowed to use their store, liberals would be OK with that because, after all, it's a membership club so they're free to discriminate? Yeah... probably not.
Please look up what public accommodations are, then look up what private clubs are. They are different entities legally.
Businesses that require phone reservations such as hotels or restaurants would make this law a bit awkward.
Potential customer: Hello, I like to book a room for blah blah blah days.
Customer Service: Sure thing. But first, please you tell me if you are gay or straight.
Businesses that require phone reservations such as hotels or restaurants would make this law a bit awkward.
Potential customer: Hello, I like to book a room for blah blah blah days.
Customer Service: Sure thing. But first, please you tell me if you are gay or straight.
Considering how many gay people work in the hospitality biz, it could get really awkward.
My version.
Potential customer: Hello, I like to book a room for blah blah blah days.
Customer Service: Sure thing. But first, please you tell me if you are gay or straight.
Potential customer: I'm straight
Customer Service: Sorry we're full.
Businesses that require phone reservations such as hotels or restaurants would make this law a bit awkward.
Potential customer: Hello, I like to book a room for blah blah blah days.
Customer Service: Sure thing. But first, please you tell me if you are gay or straight.
Discrimination against Jews in the US - particularly in hotels, resorts, restaurants, and nightclubs - was widespread and common until the late 1940's. In 1947 a groundbreaking and controversial best selling novel "Gentlemen's Agreement" by Laura Z. Hobson exposed the problem. Later that year a movie adaptation of the book starring Gregory Peck was made. It created a national debate at a time when the US was victorious over the racist and undemocratic Nazi Reich. The debate about denying access and accommodation against minority groups had begun. Ironically the same author, Hobson, penned an important novel about homophobia and anti-gay animus 25 years later ... "Consenting Adult."
Funny how he won't give the name of his business. He should be proud to stand up for his beliefs.
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