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Old 04-18-2015, 07:05 AM
 
Location: The Republic of Texas
66,574 posts, read 33,850,746 times
Reputation: 14281

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Freedom of religion, is not defined as freedom from religion.... Today's definition of Church & State by the centralized government, was not the same as those that founded this nation.


"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."

George Washington - The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.




"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be."

John Adams - Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9



"The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite, and these Principles only could be intended by them in their address, or by me in my answer. And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were United: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty, in which all those young Men United, and which had United all Parties in America, in Majorities sufficient to assert and maintain her Independence."Now I will avow, that I then believe, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes to GOD; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System."

John Adams - June 28, 1813, excerpt from a letter to Thomas Jefferson.




"The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever."

John Adams - letter to his wife, Abigail, on July 3, 1776.



"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."

Thomas Jefferson - Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.



"I am a real Christian that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."

Thomas Jefferson - The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.




"Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us."

John Hancock - History of the United States of America, Vol. II, p. 229.



"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshiped.
"That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.
"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see;
"But I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and more observed; especially as I do not perceive, that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure."

Benjamin Franklin - letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University on March 9, 1790




"And as it is our duty to extend our wishes to the happiness of the great family of man, I conceive that we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world that the rod of tyrants may be broken to pieces, and the oppressed made free again; that wars may cease in all the earth, and that the confusions that are and have been among nations may be overruled by promoting and speedily bringing on that holy and happy period when the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and all people everywhere willingly bow to the sceptre of Him who is Prince of Peace."

Samuel Adams - As Governor of Massachusetts, Proclamation of a Day of Fast, March 20, 1797



"A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest while we are building ideal monuments of Renown and Bliss here we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven."

James Madison - Written to William Bradford on November 9, 1772, Faith of Our Founding Fathers by Tim LaHaye, pp. 130-131; Christianity and the Constitution The Faith of Our Founding Fathers by John Eidsmoe, p. 98.



"When we view the blessings with which our country has been favored, those which we now enjoy, and the means which we possess of handing them down unimpaired to our latest posterity, our attention is irresistibly drawn to the source from whence they flow. Let us then, unite in offering our most grateful acknowledgments for these blessings to the Divine Author of All Good."

James Monroe - his 2nd Annual Message to Congress, November 16, 1818.




"The hope of a Christian is inseparable from his faith. Whoever believes in the divine inspiration of the Holy Scriptures must hope that the religion of Jesus shall prevail throughout the earth. Never since the foundation of the world have the prospects of mankind been more encouraging to that hope than they appear to be at the present time. And may the associated distribution of the Bible proceed and prosper till the Lord shall have made 'bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God' (Isaiah 52:10)."

John Quincy Adams - Life of John Quincy Adams, p. 248.




"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."

Alexander Hamilton - Famous American Statesmen, p. 126.



"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."


Patrick Henry - The Trumpet Voice of Freedom: Patrick Henry of Virginia, p. iii.








"The Bible ... is a book worth more than all the other books that were ever printed."


Patrick Henry - Sketches of the Life and Character of Patrick Henry, p. 402.












Our founding fathers would beg to differ. There was a whole lot of God & Jesus Christ, in Government to bring freedom to this nation.


Freedom of religion, is much different than that of, freedom from religion.


Who do we believe? Government that is pushing on the 1st amendment of freedom, or our actual founding fathers of this once great nation.
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Old 04-18-2015, 07:16 AM
 
Location: Texas
35,296 posts, read 19,322,938 times
Reputation: 20920
Talking Freedom of religion... Not freedom from religion

Religious affiliation in the USA is fading.

Deal with it.

America's Less Religious: Study Puts Some Blame On The Internet : All Tech Considered : NPR

Religion Among Americans Hits Low Point, As More People Say They Have No Religious Affiliation: Report

The Great Decline: 60 years of religion in one graph - Corner of Church and State

Carry on.

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Old 04-18-2015, 07:45 AM
 
Location: Iowa, USA
6,553 posts, read 3,285,673 times
Reputation: 3801
Quote:
Originally Posted by BentBow View Post
Our founding fathers would beg to differ. There was a whole lot of God & Jesus Christ, in Government to bring freedom to this nation.


Freedom of religion, is much different than that of, freedom from religion.


Who do we believe? Government that is pushing on the 1st amendment of freedom, or our actual founding fathers of this once great nation.
And did you know Thomas Jefferson said that the constitution should be rewritten every 19 years so the current generation will not be a slave to the previous one?

If the logic of the founders is so great, they're religious beliefs would be of little relevance to the religious beliefs of today. Those men were smart people; they were not literal minded, as one cannot be literal minded and intelligent. They wanted people to think for themselves and not be trapped by the thought of others. So you can post how ever many pro-Jesus quotes from them that you want, but if you base your life philosophy on their thoughts instead of your own, you are doing exactly the opposite of what they would have wanted.

And indeed, freedom of religion is the same things as freedom from religion. For clarity, freedom from religion does not mean you will never come into contact with it. It simply means it never has to influence your life if you do not want it to. A baptist is free from the thought of a methodist in the same way that a Christian is free from the thoughts of Muslims. By choosing one religion, you then must choose to refuse all others. This is undeniably the very definition of freedom from religion.
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Old 04-18-2015, 07:54 AM
 
4,986 posts, read 2,669,613 times
Reputation: 2738
Quote:
Originally Posted by BentBow View Post
Freedom of religion, is not defined as freedom from religion.... Today's definition of Church & State by the centralized government, was not the same as those that founded this nation.


"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."

George Washington - The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.




"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be."

John Adams - Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9



"The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite, and these Principles only could be intended by them in their address, or by me in my answer. And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were United: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty, in which all those young Men United, and which had United all Parties in America, in Majorities sufficient to assert and maintain her Independence."Now I will avow, that I then believe, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes to GOD; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System."

John Adams - June 28, 1813, excerpt from a letter to Thomas Jefferson.




"The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever."

John Adams - letter to his wife, Abigail, on July 3, 1776.



"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."

Thomas Jefferson - Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.



"I am a real Christian that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."

Thomas Jefferson - The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.




"Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us."

John Hancock - History of the United States of America, Vol. II, p. 229.



"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshiped.
"That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.
"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see;
"But I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and more observed; especially as I do not perceive, that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure."

Benjamin Franklin - letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University on March 9, 1790




"And as it is our duty to extend our wishes to the happiness of the great family of man, I conceive that we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world that the rod of tyrants may be broken to pieces, and the oppressed made free again; that wars may cease in all the earth, and that the confusions that are and have been among nations may be overruled by promoting and speedily bringing on that holy and happy period when the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and all people everywhere willingly bow to the sceptre of Him who is Prince of Peace."

Samuel Adams - As Governor of Massachusetts, Proclamation of a Day of Fast, March 20, 1797



"A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest while we are building ideal monuments of Renown and Bliss here we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven."

James Madison - Written to William Bradford on November 9, 1772, Faith of Our Founding Fathers by Tim LaHaye, pp. 130-131; Christianity and the Constitution The Faith of Our Founding Fathers by John Eidsmoe, p. 98.



"When we view the blessings with which our country has been favored, those which we now enjoy, and the means which we possess of handing them down unimpaired to our latest posterity, our attention is irresistibly drawn to the source from whence they flow. Let us then, unite in offering our most grateful acknowledgments for these blessings to the Divine Author of All Good."

James Monroe - his 2nd Annual Message to Congress, November 16, 1818.




"The hope of a Christian is inseparable from his faith. Whoever believes in the divine inspiration of the Holy Scriptures must hope that the religion of Jesus shall prevail throughout the earth. Never since the foundation of the world have the prospects of mankind been more encouraging to that hope than they appear to be at the present time. And may the associated distribution of the Bible proceed and prosper till the Lord shall have made 'bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God' (Isaiah 52:10)."

John Quincy Adams - Life of John Quincy Adams, p. 248.




"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."

Alexander Hamilton - Famous American Statesmen, p. 126.



"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."


Patrick Henry - The Trumpet Voice of Freedom: Patrick Henry of Virginia, p. iii.








"The Bible ... is a book worth more than all the other books that were ever printed."


Patrick Henry - Sketches of the Life and Character of Patrick Henry, p. 402.












Our founding fathers would beg to differ. There was a whole lot of God & Jesus Christ, in Government to bring freedom to this nation.


Freedom of religion, is much different than that of, freedom from religion.


Who do we believe? Government that is pushing on the 1st amendment of freedom, or our actual founding fathers of this once great nation.
Good thing Obama has fundamentally transformed America from that religious nonsense!
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Old 04-18-2015, 08:28 AM
 
950 posts, read 715,854 times
Reputation: 1615
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ih2puo View Post
Good thing Obama has fundamentally transformed America from that religious nonsense!

mentioning "Obama" and "Good thing" in the same sentence creates an oxymoron
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Old 04-18-2015, 09:04 AM
 
Location: The Republic of Texas
66,574 posts, read 33,850,746 times
Reputation: 14281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ih2puo View Post
Good thing Obama has fundamentally transformed America from that religious nonsense!


The Constitution is fundamentally religious in its founding. Changing the constitution without amending it is truly transforming the foundation of the nation, placing all the power in government and taking it completely from the people. Oppression and tyranny have crept in slowly.
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Old 04-18-2015, 09:36 AM
 
Location: Between the Alps and the North Sea
309 posts, read 205,807 times
Reputation: 477
The Founding Fathers were some outstanding minds, but why do modern Americans have to defer to them for everything? They were also children of their time and prone to some misconceptions that were common for their time. Highly educated, sure, but they did not have the scientific evidence that is now available to us. I think if the Founding Fathers had it available to them, they would be at least open to rethinking their faith as well. An I am not sure they would not want being deferred to as some kind of infallible authority whose thought holds true for all time.
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Old 04-18-2015, 09:37 AM
 
17,497 posts, read 10,669,720 times
Reputation: 6746
Quote:
Originally Posted by BentBow View Post
The Constitution is fundamentally religious in its founding. Changing the constitution without amending it is truly transforming the foundation of the nation, placing all the power in government and taking it completely from the people. Oppression and tyranny have crept in slowly.
For some this seems just to outdated: "Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be."

John Adams - Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9


Isn't this (in bold) exactly what they left preaches??
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Old 04-18-2015, 09:41 AM
 
17,497 posts, read 10,669,720 times
Reputation: 6746
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiegendesLicht View Post
The Founding Fathers were some outstanding minds, but why do modern Americans have to defer to them for everything? They were also children of their time and prone to some misconceptions that were common for their time. Highly educated, sure, but they did not have the scientific evidence that is now available to us. I think if the Founding Fathers had it available to them, they would be at least open to rethinking their faith as well. An I am not sure they would not want being deferred to as some kind of infallible authority whose thought holds true for all time.
How did science come to the conclusion......taking from others and giving it to those who refuse to work is scientific research or putting a whole nation of food stamps is good for the environment?


It's the laid down foundation of the founding fathers we follow.
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Old 04-18-2015, 09:41 AM
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
56,204 posts, read 54,662,203 times
Reputation: 66697
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds View Post
For some this seems just to outdated: "Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be."

John Adams - Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9


Isn't this (in bold) exactly what they left preaches??
The problem is, every member does NOT "regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited...justice, kindness, charity...", not even in the churches themselves.

Keep freedom of religion, and keep religion out of government.
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