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It has been the law for decades that if law enforcement has a reasonable suspicion of illegal activities they can go to court and get a search warrant or a tap to listen in on conversations. It's wrong to start down the road that people are guilty until law enforcement can prove to themselves they are not.
"It's wrong to start down the road that people are guilty until law enforcement can prove to themselves they are not."
What makes you think we have started down "that road"?
Nobody is proposing that we not have a court to sign off on these warrants. Even the Patriot Act requires that.
However, the interpretation of these provisions has been expanded to include the mass collection of data, apparently including the phone records of all Americans, which is about as blatantly unconstitutional as can possibly be imagined. The USA Freedom Act apparently clarifies that warrants are required and that mass collection of data is not allowed.
"However, the interpretation of these provisions has been expanded to include the mass collection of data, apparently including the phone records of all Americans, which is about as blatantly unconstitutional as can possibly be imagined."
WRONG!
I heard a good analogy. The courts have ruled that the Post Office CAN track mail. Who sent it. who received it, etc.
They CANNOT open the mail and look at the content.
NSA is doing the SAME THING. They track what telephone number called which other number, PERIOD.
They do NOT "listen in" to the conversations taking place.
IF a bad guy overseas makes a call THE telephone number is identified.
All calls made from THAT number are tracked.
IF a call from that number is traced to the United States, NSA sends that info to the FBI.
The FBI THEN goes to the FISA court for a WARRANT TO track and "listen" to the conversations.
There is so much mis-information going around about what NSA ACTUALLY does and does NOT do has made it almost impossible to have an HONEST discussion on the subject.
A pair of classified government documents (No. 1 and No. 2) signed by Attorney General Eric Holder and posted by the Guardian on Thursday show that NSA analysts are able to listen to Americans' intercepted phone calls without asking a judge for a warrant first.
anyone who supports or defends the Patriot Act, ironically would have been considered a traitor during the tumultuous time when Americans sought their freedom from England.
Terrorists who want to attack the U.S. are closely monitoring the congressional battle over the Patriot Act with hopes of finding ways to strike, the head of the CIA said on Sunday.
“I think terrorist elements have watched very carefully what has happened here in the United States,†Director John Brennan said on CBS’s “Face the Nation.â€
“Whether or not it’s disclosures of classified information, or whether it’s changes in the law and policies, they’re looking for the seams to operate within,†he added. “This is something that we can’t afford to deal with right now, because if you look at the horrific terrorist attacks and violence that’s being perpetrated around the globe, we need to keep our country safe.â€
Senator Mike Lee (R-UT) said today that he believes the votes are there to pass the USA Freedom Act, which is the reformed version of the Patriot Act that was passed by the House on a huge bipartisan 338-88 margin, and which is also supported by President Obama.
The leading Republican behind a Senate effort to rein in the National Security Agency (NSA) said on Sunday that he expected to have the 60 votes necessary to advance his bill later in the afternoon.
At the same time, Sen. Mike Lee (R-Utah) acknowledged that Sen. Rand Paul's (R-Ky.) pledge to “force an expiration†of parts of the Patriot Act may delay the final passage until later in the week — after the three provisions expire.
“I do believe we have the votes,†Lee said on CNN’s “State of the Union.â€â€œAt this point, I think is not about whether we get this passed but when,†he added. “It’ll happen either tonight or it’ll happen on Wednesday, or somewhere within that 72 hour window.â€
The Director of the CIA says that terrorists are watching this debate closely to find gaps that that can exploit to attack us through:
Of course he said that. It's called job security.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartacus713
Senator Mike Lee (R-UT) said today that he believes the votes are there to pass the USA Freedom Act, which is the reformed version of the Patriot Act that was passed by the House on a huge bipartisan 338-88 margin, and which is also supported by President Obama.
"However, the interpretation of these provisions has been expanded to include the mass collection of data, apparently including the phone records of all Americans, which is about as blatantly unconstitutional as can possibly be imagined."
WRONG!
I heard a good analogy. The courts have ruled that the Post Office CAN track mail. Who sent it. who received it, etc.
They CANNOT open the mail and look at the content.
NSA is doing the SAME THING. They track what telephone number called which other number, PERIOD.
They do NOT "listen in" to the conversations taking place.
IF a bad guy overseas makes a call THE telephone number is identified.
All calls made from THAT number are tracked.
IF a call from that number is traced to the United States, NSA sends that info to the FBI.
The FBI THEN goes to the FISA court for a WARRANT TO track and "listen" to the conversations.
There is so much mis-information going around about what NSA ACTUALLY does and does NOT do has made it almost impossible to have an HONEST discussion on the subject.
I do not doubt that Tamerlan Tsarnaev was making phone calls to known terrorist areas, after all he was traveling back and forth to them. He wasn't even a citizen of this country. How did all of this collection of data do any good? What good is it when they are not even able to connect the obvious? He was already a suspect in another murder.
There are two other provisions in the law that the NSA relies on which will cause it to continue to spy on Americans even if section 215 of the PATRIOT Act does expire. One of those is a section of the FISA law called section 702, and one of them is a still-existing executive order signed by President George W. Bush in the fall or 2001, which has not been tinkered with, interfered with, or rescinded.
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