Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
View Poll Results: Do you wish to be
SOVEREIGN - under a republican form of government 24 66.67%
SUBJECT - under a democratic form of government 7 19.44%
SERF - under a socialist form of government 5 13.89%
Voters: 36. You may not vote on this poll

Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 04-19-2015, 04:21 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
19,029 posts, read 14,216,690 times
Reputation: 16752

Advertisements

American Sovereigns?
==\==\==\==
In American law, under the republican form, the INDIVIDUAL American is a sovereign - not a subject.
. . .
From an early Supreme Court ruling :
“It will be sufficient to observe briefly that the sovereignties in Europe, and particularly in England, exist on feudal principles. That system considers the Prince as the sovereign, and the people as his subjects; it regards his person as the object of allegiance, and excludes the idea of his being on an equal footing with a subject, either in a court of justice or elsewhere... No such ideas obtain here; at the Revolution, the sovereignty devolved on the people, and they are truly the sovereigns of the country, but they are sovereigns without subjects, and have none to govern but themselves[.]

“From the differences existing between feudal sovereignties and governments founded on compacts, it necessarily follows that their respective prerogatives must differ. Sovereignty is the right to govern; a nation or State sovereign is the person or persons in whom that resides. In Europe, the sovereignty is generally ascribed to the Prince; here, it rests with the people; there, the sovereign actually administers the government; here, never in a single instance; our Governors are the agents of the people, and, at most, stand in the same relation to their sovereign in which regents in Europe stand to their sovereigns."
- - - John Jay in Chisholm v. Georgia (2 U.S. 419 (1793))
. . .
However, citizens are subjects.
. . .
CITIZEN - ... Citizens are members of a political community who, in their associative capacity, have established or submitted themselves to the dominion of government for the promotion of the general welfare and the protection of their individual as well as collective rights.
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Ed. p.244

". . . the term 'citizen,' in the United States, is analogous to the term "subject" in the common law; the change of phrase has resulted from the change in government. ... he who before was a "subject of the King" is now a citizen of the State."
- - - State v. Manuel, 20 N.C. 144 (1838)

SUBJECT - One that owes allegiance to a sovereign and is governed by his laws.
. . . Men in free governments are subjects as well as citizens; as citizens they enjoy rights and franchises; as subjects they are bound to obey the laws. The term is little used, in this sense, in countries enjoying a republican form of government.
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, p. 1425
.....................
It is obvious that no sovereign can be a citizen, and vice versa.

In most other countries, men are subjects of sovereigns, bound to obedience. In countries like the USA, that ENJOY a republican form, sovereign men are not presumed to be subjects and citizens. Nor are they bound to OBEY laws (regulatory).

BUT if one is NOT in a republican form - such as those in a constitutionally limited indirect democracy - one is a subject and bound to obedience - by consent.
. . .

If you asked most Americans, they would be blithely ignorant of their lost heritage of sovereignty, freedom and independence - surrendered in exchange for socialist entitlements (via FICA/ Social Security) and participation in democracy.

More citations:
The people of the state, as the successors of its former sovereign, are entitled to all the rights which formerly belonged to the king by his own prerogative.
- - - Lansing v. Smith, (1829) 4 Wendell 9, (NY)

It will be admitted on all hands that with the exception of the powers granted to the states and the federal government, through the Constitutions, the people of the several states are unconditionally sovereign within their respective states.
- - - Ohio L. Ins. & T. Co. v. Debolt 16 How. 416, 14 L.Ed. 997

In America, however, the case is widely different. Our government is founded upon compact. Sovereignty was, and is, in the people.
- - - Glass vs The Sloop Betsey, 3 Dall 6 (1794)

Sovereignty itself is, of course, not subject to law, for it is the author and source of law; but in our system, while sovereign powers are delegated to the agencies of government, sovereignty itself remains with the people, by whom and for whom all government exists and acts.
- - - Yick Wo vs Hopkins, 118 U.S. 356, 370 (1886)
These citations support the republican form of government, wherein the sovereign people have endowed rights and liberties, which include absolute ownership of private property, natural and personal liberty.

Sadly, Americans are victims of the world's greatest propaganda ministry and are ignorant, apathetic and arrogantly proud of their lack of knowledge about American law and history.

You can change that.
Go read the law, available at any county courthouse law library.
Rediscover your heritage and birthright that was stolen from you by trickery and fraud.

. . .
Americans are indoctrinated to revere democracy, which is anathema to the republican form of government they were promised in their own constitution.

Not 1 in 100,000 Americans know of the republican form, nor can they accurately define it.

Here are THREE definitions that describe aspects associated with the REPUBLICAN FORM
. . .
COMMONWEALTH - ...It generally designates, when so employed, a republican form of government, - one in which the welfare and rights of the entire mass of people are the main consideration, rather than the privileges of a class or the will of the monarch...
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, P. 278

SUBJECT - One that owes allegiance to a sovereign and is governed by his laws.
...Men in free governments are subjects as well as citizens; as citizens they enjoy rights and franchises; as subjects they are bound to obey the laws. The term is little used, in this sense, in countries enjoying a republican form of government.
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, p. 1425

GOVERNMENT (Republican Form of Government)- One in which the powers of sovereignty are vested in the people and are exercised by the people... directly...
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, P. 695
. . .
In a republican form, the rights and welfare of ALL the people are the main consideration.
Unlike other nations, the American people are the sovereigns, not the government.
BUT.
Those who consent, descend to citizenship, and become subjects of their "sovereign" government - whatever its form (oligarchy, socialist democracy, constitutionally limited indirect democracy, parliamentary democracy, etc).

Service is a privilege, not a right, ergo, citizens and public servants serve at the pleasure of the sovereign people and must adhere to a higher standard of behavior as well as perform mandatory civic duties.

{Americans effectively abandoned the republican form in the 1820s, though their legislated statutes still conform to it. That few know of this is a victory for the world's greatest propaganda ministry.}

. . .

There is still time.
Read law.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 04-21-2015, 01:57 AM
 
Location: Prepperland
19,029 posts, read 14,216,690 times
Reputation: 16752
.................................................. ...............
ALIEN, n. An American sovereign in his probationary state.
- - - - “The Devil’s Dictionary” (1906), by Ambrose Bierce
(download available from gutenberg.org)
.................................................. ...............
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-21-2015, 02:08 AM
 
34,279 posts, read 19,384,355 times
Reputation: 17261
Oh look, someone who wants to argue semantics.

Im a American citizen. Subject to the democracy....that *I* elect.

Now lots of folks here want to:
limit who can vote (My favorite being that only people paying federal tax get to vote)
Not participate in the costs associated with a functioning government, while reaping all the benefits (often calling themselves sovereign citizens"

Welcome to reality.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-21-2015, 12:03 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
19,029 posts, read 14,216,690 times
Reputation: 16752
Quote:
Originally Posted by greywar View Post
[1]Oh look, someone who wants to argue semantics.

[2] Im a American citizen. Subject to the democracy....that *I* elect.

Now lots of folks here want to:
limit who can vote (My favorite being that only people paying federal tax get to vote)
Not participate in the costs associated with a functioning government, while reaping all the benefits (often calling themselves [3] sovereign citizens"

[4] Welcome to reality.
[1] Semantics - The study or science of meaning in language.
No one is arguing the meaning of language. . . except in your own mind.
Legal definitions and citations are what they are, whether they fit your belief structure or not.

[2] If that's what you want to be, no one is stopping you.

[3] There is no such thing as a sovereign citizen. It's an oxymoron. Like Vegetarian Cannibal.

[4] Reality is found in your local county courthouse law library.
So far, none of your objections and comments rebutted the previously posted FACTS.
Thank you for the kind words of support.

. . .

Restating : In the Republican Form of government,
> American people are unconditionally sovereign until they consent otherwise.
> American citizens are subjects, bound to perform MANDATORY civic duties, that amount to the surrender of endowed rights to life, to liberty and to absolute ownership of private property.

*****************
"What I do say is that no man is good enough to govern another man without that other's consent. I say this is the leading principle, the sheet-anchor of American republicanism. Our Declaration of Independence says: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: That all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."
- - - Abraham Lincoln, Speech at Peoria, Illinois (1854)
Abraham Lincoln - Wikiquote

As Lincoln reminds us, under the republican form, promised by the USCON, instituted by the Declaration of Independence, NO MAN (nor American government) is good enough to govern you without your consent.

You must learn HOW and WHEN you gave consent and decide if you wish to continue or withdraw that consent.

Until the current system is destroyed, you still have the freedom of choice.

Pursuant to the Declaration of Independence, government has two jobs:
▸ [1] secure rights and
▸ [2] govern those who consent.

CAVEAT : consent waives job #1 !
. . .
(Ex: Militia duty is prima facie evidence of the surrender of the endowed rights to life and liberty.)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-21-2015, 12:10 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
19,029 posts, read 14,216,690 times
Reputation: 16752
Why must Americans be made to forget the republican form of government?

Because the republican form is the greatest obstacle to those who wish to rule us. It destroys socialist slavery. It eviscerates the partisan political system. (Imagine how much power government will have when it lacks willing subjects and their tax revenues!).

American governments were instituted by compact to secure the rights of the sovereign people. We were born to be Kings and Queens, monarchs of our lives and destinies. Americans were once the social equals of every other monarch on Earth - which explains why Americans didn’t bow to anyone. Any other “titled” nobleman was a step lower than the lowest American sovereign. Foreign nobility could marry "common" Americans and not violate their local marriage laws - because Americans were sovereigns - not subjects. Because of this, our enemies have perverted generations, and polluted our language so that we may not recognize our tormentors. But I hope that someday, enough Americans awaken to their lost heritage. For when that day arrives, the heavens will rock with their exultation.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-21-2015, 12:37 PM
 
34,279 posts, read 19,384,355 times
Reputation: 17261
Jetgraphics, I was the only one who even bothered with your nonsense.

awaken to our lost heritage? You mean your fantasy? Where you don't actually reside in reality, and deny the reality that you live in? This is why no one else is responding. Its not because they can't, its because time after time we see the basis of it all, you want something for nothing. You want to take form others, while not giving anything.

You even want to play word games with the description of "Playing semantics". By defining a single word, while ignoring the prior word that indicate the meaning.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-21-2015, 12:42 PM
 
Location: Corona del Mar, CA - Coronado, CA
4,477 posts, read 3,303,880 times
Reputation: 5609
Serf fer sure..... I just got a new serfboard and the serf has been awesome lately.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-21-2015, 01:53 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,001 posts, read 35,198,674 times
Reputation: 7875
What?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-21-2015, 01:57 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
19,029 posts, read 14,216,690 times
Reputation: 16752
Quote:
Originally Posted by greywar View Post
Jetgraphics, I was the only one who even bothered with your nonsense.

awaken to our lost heritage? You mean your fantasy? Where you don't actually reside in reality, and deny the reality that you live in? This is why no one else is responding. Its not because they can't, its because time after time we see the basis of it all, you want something for nothing. You want to take form others, while not giving anything.

You even want to play word games with the description of "Playing semantics". By defining a single word, while ignoring the prior word that indicate the meaning.
If you can show Lincoln is lying, or Justice Jay is lying or the legal references are in error, you may have a valid point. I am not infallible. But when I wrote questionnaires to public servants, they stood mute on these topics.

The words are clear : Americans are UNCONDITIONALLY SOVEREIGN. Whereas, citizens are subjects.

BTW - "Something for nothing" is what SOCIALISTS want. They want the government to TAKE from one to GIVE to another. That is NOT part of the republican form of government.

Once, again, you do not rebut the previous material, and I thank you for the kind words of support.

. . . .
SOVEREIGN - "...Having undisputed right to make decisions and act accordingly".
New Webster's Dictionary And Thesaurus, p. 950.

SOVEREIGN - A person, body or state in which independent and supreme authority is vested...
Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, p. 1395.

GOVERNMENT (Republican Form of Government)- One in which the powers of sovereignty are vested in the people and are exercised by the people,... directly...
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, P. 695
The American people have the powers of sovereignty, and DIRECTLY exercise those powers.

Next question : WHERE do American sovereigns directly exercise absolute, independent and supreme authority?

PRIVATE PROPERTY.
PRIVATE PROPERTY - As protected from being taken for public uses, is such property as belongs absolutely to an individual, and of which he has the exclusive right of disposition. Property of a specific, fixed and tangible nature, capable of being in possession and transmitted to another, such as houses, lands, and chattels.
- - - Black's Law dictionary, sixth ed., p.1217.

OWNERSHIP - ... Ownership of property is either absolute or qualified. The ownership of property is absolute when a single person has the absolute dominion over it... The ownership is qualified when it is shared with one or more persons, when the time of enjoyment is deferred or limited, or when the use is restricted.
- - -Black's Law dictionary, sixth ed., p. 1106

LAND. ... The land is one thing, and the estate in land is another thing, for an estate in land is a time in land or land for a time.
- - -Black's Law dictionary, sixth ed., p.877
Note: Only PRIVATE PROPERTY ownership is constitutionally protected. Qualified ownership of estate (“real and personal property”) may be subject to ad valorem taxation and other restrictions.

As to the notion that the American sovereign is getting "something for nothing."
"There is a clear distinction in this particular case between an individual and a corporation, and that the latter has no right to refuse to submit its books and papers for an examination at the suit of the State. The individual may stand upon his constitutional right as a citizen. He is entitled to carry on his private business in his own way. His power to contract is unlimited. He owes no such duty to the State, since he receives nothing therefrom, beyond the protection of his life and property. HIS RIGHTS ARE SUCH AS EXISTED BY THE LAW OF THE LAND (*COMMON LAW) LONG ANTECEDENT TO THE ORGANIZATION OF THE STATE, and can only be taken from him by due process of law, and in accordance with the Constitution. Among his rights are refusal to incriminate himself, and the immunity of himself and his property from arrest or seizure except under a warrant of law. He owes nothing to the public so long as he does not trespass upon their rights. "
- - - Hale vs Henkel, 201 U.S. 43.
. . .
Governments instituted to secure rights have no delegation of power to tax rights - only privileges that they grant.
. . .
"The individual, unlike the corporation, cannot be taxed for the mere privilege of existing. The corporation is an artificial entity which owes its existence and charter powers to the state; but, the individual's rights to live and own property are NATURAL RIGHTS for the enjoyment of which an excise [tax] cannot be imposed."
- - - Redfield vs Fisher, 292 P. 813, at 819.
NATURAL RIGHTS - ... are the rights of life, liberty, privacy, and good reputation.
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Ed., p. 1324

PERSONAL LIBERTY, or the Right to enjoyment of life and liberty, is one of the fundamental or NATURAL Rights, which has been protected by its inclusion as a guarantee in the various constitutions, which is not derived from, or dependent on, the U.S. Constitution, which may not be submitted to a vote and may not depend on the outcome of an election. It is one of the most sacred and valuable Rights, as sacred as the Right to private property . . . and is regarded as inalienable.
- - - 16 Corpus Juris Secundum, Constitutional Law, Sect.202, p.987...
If you're wondering why Americans don't seem to "absolutely own" private property, you can thank FICA - voluntary socialism (kinder and gentler communism).
From the Communist manifesto: "In this sense, the theory of the Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property."
https://www.marxists.org/archive/mar...ist-manifesto/

Did something happen in 1933?
http://www.city-data.com/forum/34913488-post10.html


More reference material:
http://www.city-data.com/forum/29755425-post158.html

As always, go READ LAW for yourself. The more eyes on the law, the better.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-21-2015, 02:22 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
19,029 posts, read 14,216,690 times
Reputation: 16752
Another aspect of American sovereignty - - -

Remember the Declaration of Independence?
Americans are endowed with "liberty" -
According to American law, liberty has four types: natural, personal, civil and political.
● Natural = absolute freedom (on one's own property or unclaimed land)
● Personal = right of locomotion (freedom to travel on public roads and waterways)
● Civil = permission from government (licenses, permits)
● Political = participation in government (voting, holding office)
The former two are endowed rights, the latter two are government privileges.

Bouvier's Law Dictionary, 1856 Edition - Letter L
LIBERTY. 1. Freedom from restraint. The power of acting as one thinks fit, without any restraint or control, except from the laws of nature.
2. Liberty is divided into civil, natural, personal, and political.
...

NATURAL LIBERTY
" Natural liberty is the right which nature gives to all mankind, of disposing of their persons and property after the manner they judge most consonant to their happiness, on condition of their acting within the limits of the law of nature, and that they do not in any way abuse it to the prejudice of other men."
- - - Bouvier's Law Dictionary

NATURAL LIBERTY - The power of acting as one thinks fit, without any restraint or control, unless by the law of nature. The right which nature gives to all mankind of disposing of their persons and property after the manner in which they judge most consistent with their happiness, on condition of their acting within the limits of the law of nature, and so as not to interfere in the equal exercise of the same rights by other men. 1 Blackstone's Commentaries, 123,
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth edition, p. 919.
...
Does that sound like "absolute ownership" over one's person and property?
...
Let us contrast that with CIVIL LIBERTY
" CIVIL LIBERTY is the power to do whatever is permitted by the constitution of the state and the laws of the land. It is no other than natural liberty, so far RESTRAINED BY HUMAN LAWS, and no further, operating equally upon all the citizens, as is necessary and expedient for the general advantage of the public." 1 Black. Com. 125; Paley's Mor. Phil. B. 6, c.5; Swifts Syst. 12
--- Bouvier's Law Dictionary

LICENSE - A personal privilege to do some particular act or series of acts on land without possessing any estate or interest therein, and is ordinarily revocable at the will of the licensor and is not assignable... The PERMISSION by competent authority to do an act which, without such permission, would be illegal, a trespass, a tort, or otherwise not allowed.
- - - Black's Law Dictionary
Civil liberty is a government privilege, a permission, as in license. It is a requirement for those who have no rights, are trespassers, or otherwise not allowed.

American nationals who are sovereign do not need permission to exercise natural and personal liberty.
American citizens who are subjects do need permission (license) to exercise civil and political liberty, they lack natural and personal liberty.

Check your own state's laws on the requirements for non-citizens / non-residents / inhabitants to get licenses (permission) or register their property with the state.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:25 PM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top