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Both sides are either mislead or in denial. I just want to raise these points.
Clarifications for the left:
1. Western countries are much more tolerant than the developing world. Tribalism is a major problem in Africa. Colorism and tension between ethnic groups in India are currently upheld.
2. The US isn't the only country with immigration laws. In fact, US immigration is pretty much generous relative to other countries. In Mexico, Cubans get deported regularly. East Asia wishes to preserve their national and ethnic heritage. Japan shows no signs of encouraging immigration.
3. Race is biological. This doesn't mean different groups are inferior or superior than others. Geographical populations can be defined genetically.
4. Gender and sex do overlap. There are plenty of studies showing boy/girl differences in behavior before socialization kicks in.
5. When people criticize Islam, it doesn't mean they're bigots. There may be some who do it out of bigotry. But people like Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Bill Maher, and Hitchens(RIP) are vocal in their opposition to Islam due to aspects that go against Western conventions. Basically, they oppose Islam due to its intolerance of gays, feminism, education, and art. Things we take for granted in Western society are shunned in the Islamic world.
6. Market capitalism and free trade have lifted billions out of poverty and have improved the standard of living of billions of people.
Every one of these is either wrong (e.g., race), or implies a fictitious strawman liberal (what liberals think Africa is a post-racial utopia?).
You're really stre-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-tching things here.
The fact is, some people are white, and some black.
Some people have round eyes, others not round eyes.
Different races have been concentrated in different parts of the planet.
There is no good reason for me to believe that those differences are socially constructed.
Yes, there is race mixing -- which is what you seem to be talking about ("migration...mating patterns.")
That is due to social factors -- but the races that are mixed are not socially constructed.
Here we see yet another example of science being corrupted by liberal politics.
But hey:
When liberals stop insisting that the government and businesses classify people by race, and give preferences to races other than the white race, then maybe I'll take you seriously.
simplistic conclusions
by your logic, since I have a chamiosee skin color, and my sister has a wheat color, then we are different races and not related right? Skin color is a poor proxy for genetic relationships.
Last edited by Stephen1110; 12-10-2015 at 10:53 AM..
Both sides are either mislead or in denial. I just want to raise these points.
Clarifications for the left:
1. Western countries are much more tolerant than the developing world. Tribalism is a major problem in Africa. Colorism and tension between ethnic groups in India are currently upheld.
2. The US isn't the only country with immigration laws. In fact, US immigration is pretty much generous relative to other countries. In Mexico, Cubans get deported regularly. East Asia wishes to preserve their national and ethnic heritage. Japan shows no signs of encouraging immigration.
3. Race is biological. This doesn't mean different groups are inferior or superior than others. Geographical populations can be defined genetically.
4. Gender and sex do overlap. There are plenty of studies showing boy/girl differences in behavior before socialization kicks in.
5. When people criticize Islam, it doesn't mean they're bigots. There may be some who do it out of bigotry. But people like Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Bill Maher, and Hitchens(RIP) are vocal in their opposition to Islam due to aspects that go against Western conventions. Basically, they oppose Islam due to its intolerance of gays, feminism, education, and art. Things we take for granted in Western society are shunned in the Islamic world.
6. Market capitalism and free trade have lifted billions out of poverty and have improved the standard of living of billions of people.
Clarifications for the right:
1. Islamic extremism mostly impacts Muslims. The vast majority of Muslims oppose ISIS. Most of the victims of Islamic terrorism are Muslims.
2. Immigration is good. It brings creativity and creates demand in the economy.
3. Market capitalism can't work without government institutions and regulations. Markets require levers like any other universal system.
4. The gun show loophole does exist. Private sellers aren't required to run background checks for transactions in most states. Yes, Chicago and other liberal cities have strict gun laws, but the guns that are recovered derive from jurisdictions with lax gun laws.
5. People don't choose to be poor. Luck and circumstances can take you a long way. Nothing is determined solely on merit.
6. Inequality does exist and should be addressed.
7. Climate change is partly human induced.
I am a liberal, as are most of my friends/family. The six items of clarification that you list for Liberals are wasted on us, because we are now and have been all of our adult lives totally aware of them. They are based on facts and are what we know, not what we believe.
Your clarifications for the right, however, will for the most part fall on deaf ears, because facts that conflict with what they believe are ignored. A point that Bill Maher makes frequently when he discusses the right wing "bubble."
Both sides are either mislead or in denial. I just want to raise these points.
Clarifications for the left:
1. Western countries are much more tolerant than the developing world. Tribalism is a major problem in Africa. Colorism and tension between ethnic groups in India are currently upheld.
2. The US isn't the only country with immigration laws. In fact, US immigration is pretty much generous relative to other countries. In Mexico, Cubans get deported regularly. East Asia wishes to preserve their national and ethnic heritage. Japan shows no signs of encouraging immigration.
3. Race is biological. This doesn't mean different groups are inferior or superior than others. Geographical populations can be defined genetically.
4. Gender and sex do overlap. There are plenty of studies showing boy/girl differences in behavior before socialization kicks in.
5. When people criticize Islam, it doesn't mean they're bigots. There may be some who do it out of bigotry. But people like Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Bill Maher, and Hitchens(RIP) are vocal in their opposition to Islam due to aspects that go against Western conventions. Basically, they oppose Islam due to its intolerance of gays, feminism, education, and art. Things we take for granted in Western society are shunned in the Islamic world.
6. Market capitalism and free trade have lifted billions out of poverty and have improved the standard of living of billions of people.
Clarifications for the right:
1. Islamic extremism mostly impacts Muslims. The vast majority of Muslims oppose ISIS. Most of the victims of Islamic terrorism are Muslims.
2. Immigration is good. It brings creativity and creates demand in the economy.
3. Market capitalism can't work without government institutions and regulations. Markets require levers like any other universal system.
4. The gun show loophole does exist. Private sellers aren't required to run background checks for transactions in most states. Yes, Chicago and other liberal cities have strict gun laws, but the guns that are recovered derive from jurisdictions with lax gun laws.
5. People don't choose to be poor. Luck and circumstances can take you a long way. Nothing is determined solely on merit.
6. Inequality does exist and should be addressed.
7. Climate change is partly human induced.
Pretty much agree on all points.
The only thing I would add is the word CAN as in "Immigration CAN be good", as long as it does not undermine wages.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knowledgeiskey
Both sides are either mislead or in denial. I just want to raise these points.
Clarifications for the left:
1. Western countries are much more tolerant than the developing world. Tribalism is a major problem in Africa. Colorism and tension between ethnic groups in India are currently upheld.
I dont know anyone on the Left who believes Western Countries are less tolerant, I believe the argument is usually about another Western Country being more tolerant than the US is.
Quote:
2. The US isn't the only country with immigration laws. In fact, US immigration is pretty much generous relative to other countries. In Mexico, Cubans get deported regularly. East Asia wishes to preserve their national and ethnic heritage. Japan shows no signs of encouraging immigration.
This is again a characterization on your part rather than the left, the U.S. immigration policy compared to other western countries is not generous, that being said, im fine with that.
Quote:
3. Race is biological. This doesn't mean different groups are inferior or superior than others. Geographical populations can be defined genetically.
Again, not sure where this argument comes from, i dont think anyone argues that race in and of itself isnt biological, only that being of a different race does not make you inferior or superior.
Quote:
4. Gender and sex do overlap. There are plenty of studies showing boy/girl differences in behavior before socialization kicks in.
Again, mischaracterization on your part, Overlap and "equal" are not the same. I dont think anyone ever said they dont overlap.
Quote:
5. When people criticize Islam, it doesn't mean they're bigots. There may be some who do it out of bigotry. But people like Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Bill Maher, and Hitchens(RIP) are vocal in their opposition to Islam due to aspects that go against Western conventions. Basically, they oppose Islam due to its intolerance of gays, feminism, education, and art. Things we take for granted in Western society are shunned in the Islamic world.
But there are people who do it that are indeed bigots.
Quote:
6. Market capitalism and free trade have lifted billions out of poverty and have improved the standard of living of billions of people.
5. When people criticize Islam, it doesn't mean they're bigots. There may be some who do it out of bigotry. But people like Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Bill Maher, and Hitchens(RIP) are vocal in their opposition to Islam due to aspects that go against Western conventions. Basically, they oppose Islam due to its intolerance of gays, feminism, education, and art. Things we take for granted in Western society are shunned in the Islamic world.
All religions can be equally criticized, they are all imperfect, as imperfect as the men who founded them - they are mostly men who did. Singling out Islam often happens due to bigotry or ignorance. one does not have to know everything about any religion to simply accept they all have problems, have sexist, racist, and homophobic ideas.
Western conventions can use a good bit of ridicule and harsh criticism. all abrahamic religions are rooted in violence, revenge, blood, and land grab.
First of all, it's not liberals per se saying that a country is happy. It' research done by think tanks all of which aren't liberal. Not to mention that they regularly appear on Forbes and Business Insider. Secondly, the suicide thing is hard to categorize. Why the Happiest States Have the Highest Suicide Rates | TIME.com
by your logic, since I have a chamiosee skin color, and my sister has a wheat color, then we are different races and not related right? Skin color is a poor proxy for genetic relationships.
....Your clarifications for the right, however, will for the most part fall on deaf ears, because facts that conflict with what they believe are ignored. A point that Bill Maher makes frequently when he discusses the right wing "bubble."
And your evidence for all of this?
None.
Thought so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsjj251
I dont know anyone on the Left who believes Western Countries are less tolerant, I believe the argument is usually about another Western Country being more tolerant than the US is.
If you lived in those countries, you might find that they are not all that tolerant.
As a gay American man, I met a Dutch gay guy in Amsterdam -- which was supposed to be the most liberal city for gays in the world at that time.
He was very closeted.
He explained to me that tourists ($$$) could do what they wanted in Amsterdam.
That didn't mean that natives could. They had their "reputation" to consider. They couldn't adopt the attitude "What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas."
Quote:
...U.S. immigration policy compared to other western countries is not generous
Wrong.
The U.S. has -- BY FAR -- the most generous immigration policy in the world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008
....All religions can be equally criticized, they are all imperfect, as imperfect as the men who founded them - they are mostly men who did. Singling out Islam often happens due to bigotry or ignorance. one does not have to know everything about any religion to simply accept they all have problems, have sexist, racist, and homophobic ideas.
We don't hang gays and stone women in this country.
And we don't execute people for leaving the Christian religion.
We don't have beheadings, crucifixions, and sentences to 3,000 lashes.
Sorry, "all religions can be equally criticized" is not true.
Islam is where Christianity was 500 years ago.
It has not reformed or progressed.
Even 500 years ago, Christianity was better.
Christ was about turning the other cheek, forgiveness, and love.
Islam has always been about conquest and submission.
That's what "Islam" means -- "submission."
Islam divides the world into two "houses."
The "house of Islam" and "the house of war."
War -- become a Muslim or die.
Or if you're lucky, become a slave or pay a tax as a "dhimmi."
Ignorance -- not a good thing.
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simplistic conclusions
