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One of the aspects which frequently seems to be overlooked is the difference between equality and thresholds. I know that my take on life is that I favor free markets and the variance in outcomes associated with incentives, while also favoring some thresholds for folks at the very bottom.
Probably, but that doesn't mean that "lower class" has to involve not having healthcare, living in crime-ridden ghettoes or sending your kids to inferior public schools,
You are correct.
I never indicated, nor implied anything of the sort
But, the "left" would like to have a "classless" society. They would like to have the government responsible for you - "cradle to the grave".
The "left" feels that the government knows what is best for you. That you should not be responsible for your well being.
The "left" wants to control what you eat, what you drink, what you drive, the type of house you live in, the amount of vacation you have to have etc.
I try to be nice to liberals. I used to be one, you know.
Some of the upper-middle-class white ones you run into on the internet are really just too sheltered to know any better. And, IME, they're just repeating what they learned in college, expecting that they spent all that time actually learning something true or useful; you can't blame them for not knowing that profs don't necessarily know much more than other mere mortals.
Anyway, good neighbors make good neighborhoods. Doesn't matter how poor or rich you are.
If people want to live in peaceful, safe neighborhoods with good schools, they're going to have to understand that those things come from the people themselves. No government program can force people to do the right things when nobody is looking.
One of the aspects which frequently seems to be overlooked is the difference between equality and thresholds. I know that my take on life is that I favor free markets and the variance in outcomes associated with incentives, while also favoring some thresholds for folks at the very bottom.
I will probably get run out on a rail but I happen to think that a communal or liberal system is ultimately superior but could never actually be achieved. The notion of each citizen doing their duty for the good of the whole and allowing all to benefit equally is noble but contradicts the current level of human nature too much in my opinion. Not to mention that it removes the inclination for personal achievement, after all, if we are all treated the same then why bother going the extra mile when it is just as much to your advantage to do less.
People still require a reward system for personal achievement and the fact that not all people are equal in ability, tends to favor a more capitalist and individualized structure to government and society, which is why I think we ultimately seem to always end up at the socialist type system. A balance between the individual and the collective and how they relate to each other.
Out of curiosity, why does socialism set off peoples mental alarms when we are already a socialist nation now?
Out of curiosity, why does socialism set off peoples mental alarms when we are already a socialist nation now?
Probably because it could go so much further than it already has. And it probably will, IMO. The paleocons have already been dragged along this far, kicking and screaming the whole way, so why not just go the whole hog?
I'm waiting for the local school system to start teaching "White Privilege 101" on the first day of kindy. Then I'll know we've finally arrived.
Anyway, I agree that liberalism is kind of appealing in its disembodied state, and I would totally be on board if someone could point to a place where millions of virtual strangers joyfully prioritized the collective good of the State over the interests of their own families.
Mostly, though, I think Margaret Meade had it right: "No matter how many communes people build, the family always comes creeping back."
Out of curiosity, why does socialism set off peoples mental alarms when we are already a socialist nation now?
Lots of variances in socialist nation perceptions, it is a matter of degrees. For example, Canada is a socialist nation too, but you would find many significant differences between Canada and the USA.
For me personally, the alarm is that I believe in incentives. I am a major believer in innovation through incentives, and the drive towards greater efficiencies. I also am a great supporter of a competitive vs a cooperative environment, as a way of creating a better life for practically everyone. I also believe it sets better models for incentivizing kids to become more achievement oriented.
It's just a slur, an emotional appeal trying to discredit progressive ideas by appealing to common prejudices.
In rhetoric this kind of fallacious slur is called "poisoning the well", and is a kind of ad hominem fallacy/attack. "Ad hominem tu quoque" would be "Al Gore cannot be taken seriously on Global Warming because he flies in a jet/lives in a big house/eats chicken, etc."
"Mr. Progressive cannot be believed because he is a Liberal-Commie Pinko who eats babies and hates Jesus!" - poisoning the well
All propaganda ultimately rests not on logical reasoning, but information overload, control of language and symbolic, often emotional imagery.
You can usually spot these people by their love of Che and Rage Against The Machine t-shirts
Hey now...Let's not bring one an amazing band into this. I'm only a little left of centerand I am a big Rage Against the Machine fan. Just sayin that musical tastes and political beliefs dont' always go hand and hand. I have some pretty conservative friends who are die hard Rage fans.
I never indicated, nor implied anything of the sort
But, the "left" would like to have a "classless" society. They would like to have the government responsible for you - "cradle to the grave".
The "left" feels that the government knows what is best for you. That you should not be responsible for your well being.
The "left" wants to control what you eat, what you drink, what you drive, the type of house you live in, the amount of vacation you have to have etc.
I just knew you would have to get into this thread at some point Agree or disagree...irrelevant to my post! It's a volatile enough thread that I expected your opinon eventually.
I never indicated, nor implied anything of the sort
But, the "left" would like to have a "classless" society. They would like to have the government responsible for you - "cradle to the grave".
The "left" feels that the government knows what is best for you. That you should not be responsible for your well being.
The "left" wants to control what you eat, what you drink, what you drive, the type of house you live in, the amount of vacation you have to have etc.
These types of extremely broad generalizations are examples of exactly what I was talking about with the OP. You act as if you know exactly what "the left" wants, as if it were some unibrained communal anthill of same-thinking androids. If I were to stereotype "the right" in this way you would become incensed, would you not?
Also, nobody in America besides cave hermits and mountain men is completely responsible for their own well being. We survive because of agreements and contracts that we make with others, many being compulsory. Some are compulsory by the force of necessity (taking a crappy job because you don't want to get evicted or end up in the homeless shelter, for instance) while others are compulsory by the force of law as established by the democratic process. I think that some (not all) conservative types like to pretend that the former restriction on economic freedom doesn't exist, that nobody can be forced into a job or onto the welfare rolls out of necessity, but those former types of agreements help out the owners and investors who benefit from desparation and the lower wages that it allows.
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And, IME, they're just repeating what they learned in college, expecting that they spent all that time actually learning something true or useful; you can't blame them for not knowing that profs don't necessarily know much more than other mere mortals. 
