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slaves were no different than cattle at that time, they were considered property. The object about state right is, the northern system wanted a strong federal government while the southern states wanted a weak central government as the constitution were written. The south was producing 75% of the exports of united states with cotton because of Eli Whitney gin. yes it was being produce on the back of the slave labor, which nobody alive agrees is good.
because the north wasn't producing as much exports on machinery. they started taxing and tariff on the southern cotton.
This is where state rights come in. the federal government started imposing program to benefit the north tax base without the consent or approval of the southern congress men
So what? These were human beings being treated as property and classified as such. So what if the northern states wanted a stronger federal government? Does it refute the fact that according to the Articles of Secession and the Conrnerstone Speech, the desire to keep slavery around was a major reason why secession took place?
It's all about tearing down monuments to white people because they had the nerve to do what other races did throughout history -- have slaves.
Yes, it's a double-standard, and definitely selective outrage directed solely at white people.
It couldn't be more obvious.
It's all part of the on-going war on white people.
Wrong. This is not a war on White people. This is a war on those who are desperate to support the Confederate cause. Last time I checked, there were alot of White people going against the South, and alot of White people today who are against the Confederate cause.
And you say that they are doing what other races did. Well, this is the USA. What goes on in the USA is our concern, not what goes on in other parts of the world. Yes, people in other parts of the world owned slaves. How many of those places tried secession on the basis of trying to keep slavery? This is about THIS country and the stuff that happened during the Civil War.
Your 'arguments' or assertions repeatedly contain multiple & easily identified logical fallacies, the straw man sham being just one.
Unless you can connect that fallacy (or any other fallacy) with something I've said, you are just blowing hot air.
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Originally Posted by phetaroi
1. I'm not saying you're wrong, but where did you come up with the data about 1/3, 1/3, 1/3?
From reading a book on the Revolutionary War.
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You aren't the only person on this forum who reads history.
I didn't say I was.
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All Americans did a very good job of cheating and killing Indians.
I didn't say they didn't.
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Several of us have discussed already judging a man on a body of work, rather than on his traitorous activity alone.
Jefferson and Washington get a pass as slave owners because of other things they did?
Like what?
Committing treason against England?
Would Jefferson Davis get a pass if he was the best juggler of his time, wrote a great book of poetry, and played the flute?
Just what is it that excuses having slaves when having slaves is morally inexcusable according to so many in this thread?
And just repeating over and over that seceding was an act to treason doesn't make it true.
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Reading comprehension is a good thing. So is being able to see the big picture and the ability to at least understand the position of other people, even if you are not in agreement with them.
Yes, that's true.
You might try putting that into practice.
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No matter how widespread slavery was doesn't make it morally right, and anyone who sticks up for slavery in any age is morally bankrupt.
Well, in that case, all of humanity was morally bankrupt from as far back as we have historical records until the nineteenth century and beyond. All nations, races and ethnic groups from the Aztecs to the sub-Saharan Africans to the Chinese to the Muslims to the ancient Greeks and Romans, etc.
It must be nice to feel morally superior to them.
How could they have been so misguided, when you are so enlightened?
How could they have been so evil, when you are so good?
Hmmm.
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The "war on White people", like the "war on Christmas", is another figment of the imagination of people who have an unsubstantiated fear that in the future they will no longer be in control of others and that those "others" may be in control of them. What they fear is people actually being equal.
The war on white people is based on selective moral outrage and a double-standard.
Whites are seen as uniquely guilty of things all races have been guilty of -- whether it is practicing slavery; waging war; invading, colonizing and oppressing others; being intolerant, or what have you.
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The Constitution is not the only document/writing that defines what America is.
I never said it was.
If you looked at all of my posts here, you would know that.
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No one in this thread has advocated for Lincoln being declared a saint.
People here have called for the removal or destruction of monuments to Confederates because of slavery.
And they have expressed disapproval of white supremacy, which they have especially associated with the South.
Well, Lincoln was a white supremacist.
Washington and Jefferson were slave owners.
Why are those people who are calling for the removal or destruction of monuments to Confederate leaders not ALSO calling for the removal or destruction of monuments to Lincoln, Washington and Jefferson?
Because they're hypocrites, that's why.
They have a totally unwarranted belief in their own moral superiority to the South.
And they have an agenda, which is to carry out a war on white people starting with the South.
That's the easy target, so it comes first.
The harder targets come later.
There is nothing else that can plausibly explain the double-standard that is so apparent in this thread.
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Back to reading is fundamental -- most of us here are not advocating tearing down these Confederate statues. The positions of we "liberals" (you really need a new mantra) have ranged from locals deciding the future of these statues, to leave them up for historical purposes, to move them to museums or historic parks, to remove them. There is not one "liberal" position on the matter at hand.
I never said there was.
But if you read through this thread, there are plenty here who want the statues torn down or restricted to museums.
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Originally Posted by phetaroi
You've mentioned this several times ("also believed in") in your avid support of the Confederacy. Do you mean you believe in white supremacy?
First of all, I have never "supported the Confederacy."
I have simply said that it had a right to exist, that the southern states had a right to secede, that in doing so they did not commit treason, and that the U.S.A was not morally better than the CSA.
All of which is true.
The USA was founded by slave owners, including Washington and Jefferson.
Lincoln was a white supremacist, and slavery was practiced in some northern states even after the South seceded.
As for white supremacy, most of what we call civilization (science, math, engineering, medicine, technology, etc.) was created by white males. So they have been in a superior position. That is just a fact. It doesn't mean it will always be that way.
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Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415
This guy's gotta be trolling. I'm convinced now.
So just because you can't win an argument with me, I must be trolling. Mmkay.
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Originally Posted by green_mariner
Wrong. This is not a war on White people. This is a war on those who are desperate to support the Confederate cause.
Not wanting historical monuments to be torn down means that you are desperate to support the Confederate cause???
I don't think so.
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And you say that [whites only did] what other races did. Well, this is the USA. What goes on in the USA is our concern, not what goes on in other parts of the world. Yes, people in other parts of the world owned slaves. How many of those places tried secession on the basis of trying to keep slavery? This is about THIS country.
Sorry.
Limiting the discussion to what YOU want to talk about is nothing but a convenient cop-out.
We are talking about race and slavery -- two things that are not limited to the United States or any one historical period.
Furthermore, there is no moral distinction between practicing slavery and seceding in order to practice slavery.
In both cases, you are practicing slavery.
Last edited by dechatelet; 01-05-2016 at 10:56 PM..
Jefferson and Washington get a pass as slave owners because of other things they did?
...
Would Jefferson Davis get a pass if he was the best juggler of his time, wrote a great book of poetry, and played the flute?
Just what is it that excuses having slaves when having slaves is morally inexcusable according to so many in this thread?
...
Well, in that case, all of humanity was morally bankrupt from as far back as we have historical records until the nineteenth century and beyond. All nations, races and ethnic groups from the Aztecs to the sub-Saharan Africans to the Chinese to the Muslims to the ancient Greeks and Romans, etc.
It must be nice to feel morally superior to them.
How could they have been so misguided, when you are so enlightened?
How could they have been so evil, when you are so good?
...
The war on white people is based on selective moral outrage and a double-standard.
Whites are seen as uniquely guilty of things all races have been guilty of -- whether it is practicing slavery; waging war; invading, colonizing and oppressing others; being intolerant, or what have you.
...
If you looked at all of my posts here, you would know that.
People here have called for the removal or destruction of monuments to Confederates because of slavery.
And they have expressed disapproval of white supremacy, which they have especially associated with the South.
Well, Lincoln was a white supremacist.
Washington and Jefferson were slave owners.
Why are those people who are calling for the removal or destruction of monuments to Confederate leaders not ALSO calling for the removal or destruction of monuments to Lincoln, Washington and Jefferson?
Because they're hypocrites, that's why.
They have a totally unwarranted belief in their own moral superiority to the South.
And they have an agenda, which is to carry out a war on white people starting with the South.
...
But if you read through this thread, there are plenty here who want the statues torn down or restricted to museums.
First of all, I have never "supported the Confederacy."
I have simply said that it had a right to exist, that the southern states had a right to secede, that in doing so they did not commit treason, and that the U.S.A was not morally better than the CSA.
...
The USA was founded by slave owners, including Washington and Jefferson.
Lincoln was a white supremacist, and slavery was practiced in some northern states even after the South seceded.
As for white supremacy, most of what we call civilization (science, math, engineering, medicine, technology, etc.) was created by white males. So they have been in a superior position. That is just a fact. It doesn't mean it will always be that way.
So just because you can't win an argument with me, I must be trolling. Mmkay.
...
We are talking about race and slavery -- two things that are not limited to the United States or any one historical period.
Furthermore, there is no moral distinction between practicing slavery and seceding in order to practice slavery.
In both cases, you are practicing slavery.
1. I am glad you read "a book" on the topic being discussed. Of course, you can't cite the information you wrote about, so it doesn't do us much good in this discussion.
2. No, and no one that I recall in this thread suggested that Washington and Jefferson "get a pass as slave owners". It's sort of like a school report card. It isn't just one big A or one big F. People are multidimensional. For them, in my view, the slavery issue gets one big F. It is not, however, the sum of what they contributed to the United States of America.
3. I will take your word for it that Jefferson Davis' greatest attributes were that he was "the best juggler of his time, wrote a great book of poetry, and played the flute".
4. Nothing excuses owning and buying and selling other human beings. But fighting and killing to uphold the right to do so is an ever more gross offense to mankind.
5. In terms of slavery, much of mankind was, indeed, morally bankrupt. However, slavery is not the single endeavor on which civilization was based, and over time civilization has gradually come to repudiate slavery; it's evolution of thought.
6. In terms of that one attribute -- buying, selling, and owning other humans -- yes, I feel superior to those who did that.
7. There is no "war on White people". It's all just in your angry mind.
8. Wrong. A few "People here have called for the removal or destruction of monuments to Confederates because of slavery". (And, BTW, I'm not one of the few).
10. Perhaps you could point to the specific posts of yours in this thread where you have spoken out against the Confederacy.
11. Well, when you enslave Blacks and don't allow them to attend schools for hundreds of years, it's rather unlikely that they'll be able to excel in "science, math, engineering, medicine, technology".
12. I don't believe you are a troll. I think it's quite clear where your sympathies are.
I am glad you read "a book" on the topic being discussed. Of course, you can't cite the information you wrote about, so it doesn't do us much good in this discussion.
How do you know I can't cite it?
"The American Revolution," edited by Ann McGrath, relevant articles by Keith Sinzinger ("A Question of Loyalty") and Rett Fisher ("A Family Permanently Divided by War")
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No, and no one that I recall in this thread suggested that Washington and Jefferson "get a pass as slave owners".
Then you haven't been reading this thread.
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I will take your word for it that Jefferson Davis' greatest attributes were that he was "the best juggler of his time, wrote a great book of poetry, and played the flute".
I didn't say that.
I guess you like to make things up.
I consider that trolling.
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Nothing excuses owning and buying and selling other human beings. But fighting and killing to uphold the right to do so is an ever more gross offense to mankind.
That's just your opinion, and it is an ill-founded one.
Practicing slavery doesn't become "morally better" just because you DON'T fight to uphold the right to practice slavery.
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In terms of slavery, much of mankind was, indeed, morally bankrupt. However, slavery is not the single endeavor on which civilization was based, and over time civilization has gradually come to repudiate slavery; it's evolution of thought.
And your point as it pertains to this argument is....?
Did anyone here suggest that "slavery is the single endeavor on which civilization is based"?
No.
Has anyone denied that civilization has gradually come to repudiate slavery?
No.
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In terms of that one attribute -- buying, selling, and owning other humans -- yes, I feel superior to those who did that.
Well then, let's give you a gold star.
No, let's give you two gold stars.
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There is no "war on White people". It's all just in your angry mind.
There is such a war, as I have already shown.
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Wrong. A few "People here have called for the removal or destruction of monuments to Confederates because of slavery". (And, BTW, I'm not one of the few).
What are you disputing here?
That people in this thread want confederate monuments torn down or confined to certain places?
I didn't ask you whether or not you approved of white supremacy.
And the number of hate groups in any region of the country proves nothing.
With the internet, those groups can have adherents from all parts of the nation.
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Perhaps you could point to the specific posts of yours in this thread where you have spoken out against the Confederacy.
Perhaps you could read this thread and thus avoid having to ask me to do that.
I have neither spoken out against the Confederacy nor approved of it.
You would already know that if you had read my posts carefully.
So I think you're just trolling again.
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Well, when you enslave Blacks and don't allow them to attend schools for hundreds of years, it's rather unlikely that they'll be able to excel in "science, math, engineering, medicine, technology".
Wow.
Thanks for telling me that!
It NEVER would have occurred to me!
Again, you're just ignoring what I say and suggesting that I said something else -- like "blacks are inherently inferior" -- which I never said.
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I don't believe you are a troll. I think it's quite clear where your sympathies are.
Well, I think you are a troll.
Your evasions, deflections and straw man "arguments" demonstrate that more than adequately.
Unless you can connect that fallacy (or any other fallacy) with something I've said, you are just blowing hot air.
Where do you want me to start? From your first post to this thread? I'll attempt, one post at a time, if you want?
Although your use of logical fallacies is not the topic here? & I'm not sure folks reading this are interested? How about the person who started this thread?
Take this for example:
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Originally Posted by dechatelet
You're deflecting.
What "the people" think doesn't alter that fact in the slightest.
Why do you defend Lincoln -- the white supremacist?
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Originally Posted by ChiGeekGuest
I said let the people (here in this thread reading this) decide who is deflecting.
Your 'arguments' or assertions repeatedly contain multiple & easily identified logical fallacies, the straw man sham being just one.
When you ask, "Why do you defend Lincoln," would it suffice to point to this link?
Here's a FACT.. A lot of you people on here are IGNORANT about a lot of things..
When you start erasing history you become HITLER and our country becomes NAZI Germany...
So keep doing what you are doing and hopefully your children or grandchildren (God help us if some of you have offspring)might just see what it was like during HITLER's reign.....
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