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We need to respect each person is an responsible individual capable of making his or her own decisions for his/her own life. Socialism assumes that's not possible - this is where we are different.
I am glad you at least accept that working for another human is a form of slavery.
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Here's the good part of the capitalism. If you don't want to be employed by someone or "indentured servant" using your word, you are more than welcome to start your own business - millions of people do. Netflix started with just a few dollars and out-competed Blockbuster in a few years. Apple started from a garage and became the world's most valuable company.
I do not disagree with the concept of capitalism. That is what works at this time in history. I understand that capitalists rent your labor instead of owning you. Sure, you want to be rented by the boss and you are willing to donate a part of your productivity to increase the profit margin of the boss. You may do this voluntarily, but you cannot deny that the boss makes money with your productivity, The boss cashes your productivity, pays you a small fraction of your productivity, and the rest is profit.
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This is called the freedom of choice, a very fundamental freedom this country is based on. Indentured servants or slaves do not have the freedom of choice.
Folks in Northern Europe have more freedom than you do. Watch the video of the American talking about working conditions in Norway. A simple grocery store clerk makes enough money to vacation in the US for a month.
I am glad you at least accept that working for another human is a form of slavery.
I do not disagree with the concept of capitalism. That is what works at this time in history. I understand that capitalists rent your labor instead of owning you. Sure, you want to be rented by the boss and you are willing to donate a part of your productivity to increase the profit margin of the boss. You may do this voluntarily, but you cannot deny that the boss makes money with your productivity, The boss cashes your productivity, pays you a small fraction of your productivity, and the rest is profit.
Folks in Northern Europe have more freedom than you do. Watch the video of the American talking about working conditions in Norway. A simple grocery store clerk makes enough money to vacation in the US for a month.
Hang on. Norway abandoned their social democratic system in 2013.
"Largely uncommented on in the US press, Europe’s long-standing social democratic tilt has changed. During recent years, almost all Western European nations have seen a dramatic fall in support for the traditional Social Democratic parties, which for so long have dominated the political landscapes. In response, the centre-left parties have morphed, moving towards greater emphasis on the benefits of free markets and individual responsibility.......
The policies have successfully addressed the problem of overutilization of welfare benefits. The number of those on sick leave in Sweden has fallen from around 212,000 individuals in 2005 to 136,000 in 2012. At the same time, the number of individuals on early retirement has fallen from 557,000 to 378,000. If we look at the total share supported by various government benefits, we can see that this figure has been reduced from 25 to 16 percent of the working age population between 2005 and 2012 (adjusted to full‑time equivalents).
The difference between the more work-fare oriented Sweden and the more welfare oriented Norway are also seen in the number of hours worked. Swedes on average spend 14 percent more hours working than their neighbors to the west. (In fact, as my brother has shown, in terms of hours worked per working age adult, Sweden has recently even outpaced the US). Particularly young Norwegians are considered to have a notoriously weak working ethic, while Swedish workers are highly praised in Norway. Interestingly, since Norway has such significant oil resources, the countries welfare state is supported by lower taxes than Sweden. Clearly, overly generous welfare systems will create welfare dependency even when combined with more moderate tax levels.
A more nuanced perspective is that although Norway has yet to introduce market liberalizations which promote competition, reduce state involvement in the economy and promote workfare policies, it seems headed in this direction. Norwegians can continue to afford an overly generous welfare system. But they have good reasons to be concerned over the social and economic consequences that follow long‑term welfare dependency and deterioration of the work ethic. Like many other European systems, Norway has much to gain in bringing in more emphasis on individual responsibility and free markets in the traditional Social Democratic system."
Hang on. Norway abandoned their social democratic system in 2013.
"Largely uncommented on in the US press, Europe’s long-standing social democratic tilt has changed. During recent years, almost all Western European nations have seen a dramatic fall in support for the traditional Social Democratic parties, which for so long have dominated the political landscapes. In response, the centre-left parties have morphed, moving towards greater emphasis on the benefits of free markets and individual responsibility.......
The policies have successfully addressed the problem of overutilization of welfare benefits. The number of those on sick leave in Sweden has fallen from around 212,000 individuals in 2005 to 136,000 in 2012. At the same time, the number of individuals on early retirement has fallen from 557,000 to 378,000. If we look at the total share supported by various government benefits, we can see that this figure has been reduced from 25 to 16 percent of the working age population between 2005 and 2012 (adjusted to full‑time equivalents).
The difference between the more work-fare oriented Sweden and the more welfare oriented Norway are also seen in the number of hours worked. Swedes on average spend 14 percent more hours working than their neighbors to the west. (In fact, as my brother has shown, in terms of hours worked per working age adult, Sweden has recently even outpaced the US). Particularly young Norwegians are considered to have a notoriously weak working ethic, while Swedish workers are highly praised in Norway. Interestingly, since Norway has such significant oil resources, the countries welfare state is supported by lower taxes than Sweden. Clearly, overly generous welfare systems will create welfare dependency even when combined with more moderate tax levels.
A more nuanced perspective is that although Norway has yet to introduce market liberalizations which promote competition, reduce state involvement in the economy and promote workfare policies, it seems headed in this direction. Norwegians can continue to afford an overly generous welfare system. But they have good reasons to be concerned over the social and economic consequences that follow long‑term welfare dependency and deterioration of the work ethic. Like many other European systems, Norway has much to gain in bringing in more emphasis on individual responsibility and free markets in the traditional Social Democratic system."
It appears that European nations are working towards more of a free-market position (aka Capitalist).
Pure socialism does not work. You are preaching to the choir. What works is a mixed economy and that is what they are striving for. BTW, pure capitalism does not work either.
Humans are greedy and will take advantage of crony capitalism or as lazy bums will take advantage of generous social programs----------same greed and dishonesty on different ends of the spectrum.
What is really important is that the government tries to work for the people rather than to donor class and corporations.
Pure socialism does not work. You are preaching to the choir. what works is a mixed economy and that is what they are striving for.
Humans are greedy and will take advantage of crony capitalism or as lazy bums will take advantage of generous social programs/. same greed on different ends of the spectrum.
What is really important is that the government tries to work for the people rather than to donor class and corporations.
How do you see government control as working for the people? And how do you see working for someone else in a capitalist society as a form of slavery? You're not bound in chains, not forced to work that job, and not forced to live under poor treatment. You are completely FREE to choose where you work.
Your attempt to use Norway as an example is a bad example. It shows a country that is attempting to live as a welfare state and exploit every welfare resource available instead of working. The country is allowing them to do just that. If a lot of European countries are looking to free market capitalist models, then that should indicate to you that the idea of a socialist economy didn't work.
Oh; and you can throw in the longer lifespans enjoyed by most other countries as well for good measure.
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In first world countries, health care has very little, if any, impact on lifespan. Genes and lifestyle choices are almost 100% of our lifespan determination.
How do you see government control as working for the people? And how do you see working for someone else in a capitalist society as a form of slavery? You're not bound in chains, not forced to work that job, and not forced to live under poor treatment. You are completely FREE to choose where you work.
You continue to assume that the government in places like Norway controls your life. Norwegians actually have more freedom than you and me. Just because they get free health care and college does not mean they are slaves. Yes, they have high taxes, but the average person in Norway earns much more than the average person in the USA.
You are correct when you say renting your body and efforts to another human is done on a voluntary basis. But, you really have little choice here. Not everybody is Bill Gates or Steve Jobs. The sad truth is that if you do not voluntarily rent your body to the boss you will not be able to feed your family or put a roof over your head. And your boss does not pay you for all your productivity. You only get paid for a portion of your productivity. The rest is profit for the other human that rented you to work for HIM. That is a sophisticated form of slavery that is actually cheaper than slavery in the old days.
Don't get me wrong I am a believer of capitalism because there is no other better system at this time in history. The only difference is that I do not rationalize as you do. I see capitalism for what it is.
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Your attempt to use Norway as an example is a bad example. It shows a country that is attempting to live as a welfare state and exploit every welfare resource available instead of working. The country is allowing them to do just that. If a lot of European countries are looking to free market capitalist models, then that should indicate to you that the idea of a socialist economy didn't work.
The citizens of Norway are owners of 65% of their oil. The citizens of the USA are owners of 0% of their oil. Guess who has a better standard of living?
It is quite possible to believe in social programs and be incredibly capitalistic.
Pure socialism does not work. You are preaching to the choir. What works is a mixed economy and that is what they are striving for. BTW, pure capitalism does not work either.
Humans are greedy and will take advantage of crony capitalism or as lazy bums will take advantage of generous social programs----------same greed and dishonesty on different ends of the spectrum.
What is really important is that the government tries to work for the people rather than to donor class and corporations.
How do you know? What, exactly, is 'pure capitalism'? Cite an instance where 'pure capitalism' was ever tried and then subsequently failed because of internal, innate flaws.
No, not even close. In fact, that thought should offend every slave that has ever lived.
The happy slave syndrome
Why do we so doggedly embrace the wages and money system when it openly makes use of us?
For some of us our wage slavery can buy us a comfortable, prosperous lifestyle and personally rewarding work; for others it means being discarded; for most of us perhaps it’s something in between. But in any event, the sole purpose of the capitalist system is to make a profit out of us and to accumulate capital, and no amount of TV property programmes, cars, foreign holidays, latte coffee, or shopping makes any difference to that.
A certain proportion of us are able to believe that ‘we’re all middle class now’, because some of us at least can afford to accumulate a certain amount of stuff. But this is an illusion; there is no middle class. We’re all working class in the economic sense that we have to sell our labour in order to live, with the exception, of course, of the small number of capitalists who can live entirely on the labour of others. The rest of us are all, economically speaking, working class by virtue of the fact that we have to let ourselves be used, to sell our labour power, to live.
How do you know? What, exactly, is 'pure capitalism'? Cite an instance where 'pure capitalism' was ever tried and then subsequently failed because of internal, innate flaws.
Pure capitalism has never been tried because it does not work. It would immediately lead to public unrest and revolution. And as a capitalist the last thing you want is a revolution. Therefore, capitalists are obligated to provide social programs to keep the less talented masses happy.
Lastly you cannot have capitalism without a framework of rules and that becomes government. Imagine an athletic competition with NO RULES. Does that mean the best athlete wins? No! For the best athletes to win there is a system in place to prevent fraud.
Do you know of an example of pure capitalism?
What would happen to you in a purely capitalistic system if you are unable to work anymore and you do not have savings? What would you do? What would you do if you do not have cash to send your kids to school?
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