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I'm missing your point..you've shown examples of where people DON'T get along....where are the examples of places they DO? (I assume you don't mean the USA). I can name MANY multicultural societies that ultimately failed because they were "done in" by failing to control their diversity...but I can think of very FEW places where SOME ethnic group or another, doesn't claim to be 'left out' of the benefits of society--and yes, that EVEN includes Canada, nice as it is...
There is no place that everyone is going to feel 100% included. The problem is human nature. But trying "assimilate" people is not going to change that. The problem is not assimilation, you generally have those in power or with majority rule and they leave out or neglect those with lesser numbers.
Sounds like my view...I don't see much disagreement....perhaps just semantics? AS I've said, putting OURSELVES, or others, in "boxes", has side effects...good ones, as well as BAD ones. When you call yourself "different", then you shouldn't be surprised when OTHERS call you 'different", as well. That was my main point.
I see what you are saying, I'm just clarifying the finer points of the argument.
Although I am gay, I do not walk around saying "Hi! I'm a gay American, nice to meet you." nor do I WANT to be treated in any other way than equally. However, gays are constantly being forced to "explain" myself to others.
When it comes to work functions for example: "Will your wife/GF be attending?" At that point, I have 2 choices: 1. Lie, and say I don't have a GF/Wife; 2. Tell the "truth" and open myself up for judgement. My point is that sometimes people don't have the choice of whether or not to box themselves. Often times, it's done for us.
Let's not forget the discrimination that homosexuals of all colors face as well. Homophobia is the current "socially acceptable" form of hate in America. I urge everybody to watch this documentary: For the Bible Tells Me So
You won't find that thread on City Data any longer. I had to ask the moderators to remove it, due to all the homophobic posts that this young man's murder illicited.
So, while we are talking about racism, let's not forget that homophobia is born from the same fountain of hatred that racism on the basis of color is. Until EVERYBODY in America and the world is free to be who they are, instead of grouped by "what" they are, humanity will never be free.
Homophobia is not actually a form of hate; the suffix "phobia" implies that one fears homosexuals...which is usually not the case.
Many in this country view homosexuality as a sin, akin to adultery...they do not hate homosexuals but rather view them as sinners. Others in this country view homosexuality as some sort of mental illness, while others actually don't mind homosexuals other than the fact that their "gayness" (I can't think of another word) is constantly praised and flaunted in society. Basically, by labeling all these people as homophobes you're stating that their opinion matters not, they must be wrong, they MUST be hate-mongers.
I thought in a free society you were free to disagree? I find the KKK and Neo-Nazis abhorrent; but I recognize they have a right to exist and be wrong and express their opinions without being shouted down or being charged with "hate speech".
I do agree with the OP that racism is an enemy of freedom. America was once a melting pot but has now become a "salad bowl" where all groups and nationalities split into their own comfortable units. I don't think the "salad bowl" analogy itself is contrary to freedom but when groups view each other as competition or feel that once group is given more privileges than other is when the divisiveness begins.
I also think that many people exploit racism for their own gain or notoriety. People who cry "RACISM!" all the time devalue and undermine the seriousness of actual cases of racism.
I see what you are saying, I'm just clarifying the finer points of the argument.
Although I am gay, I do not walk around saying "Hi! I'm a gay American, nice to meet you." nor do I WANT to be treated in any other way than equally. However, gays are constantly being forced to "explain" myself to others.
When it comes to work functions for example: "Will your wife/GF be attending?" At that point, I have 2 choices: 1. Lie, and say I don't have a GF/Wife; 2. Tell the "truth" and open myself up for judgement. My point is that sometimes people don't have the choice of whether or not to box themselves. Often times, it's done for us.
BVH - This happens to everyone that doesn't "fit in" with what's "normal". I feel for you that you don't ask to be placed in that situation most times. I think that most Americans (I could be wrong) wouldn't care if you said "Yes, my partner will be coming."
Although racism is a bad thing it has always been here and it always will be, most people who say they are not racist are just kidding themselves, everybody dislikes some group of people. Sometimes people bring way to much attention to themselves and turn others agianst them, I judge people on their actions and have worked with many blacks, hispanics and gays, the only problem I have ever had was that they were always telling me they were black, hispanic and gay and defending themselves for no reason, it gets old.
I've worked with a lot of people in my time and I have never met someone who is not in some way racist.
Homophobia is not actually a form of hate; the suffix "phobia" implies that one fears homosexuals...which is usually not the case.
Hate stems from fear of that which is different from ones' self.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaBee
Many in this country view homosexuality as a sin, akin to adultery...they do not hate homosexuals but rather view them as sinners. Others in this country view homosexuality as some sort of mental illness, while others actually don't mind homosexuals other than the fact that their "gayness" (I can't think of another word) is constantly praised and flaunted in society. Basically, by labeling all these people as homophobes you're stating that their opinion matters not, they must be wrong, they MUST be hate-mongers.
I don't disagree with you. In fact, I agree everybody is entitled to their own points of view insofar as their opinions/viewpoints don't infringe upon mine or vice versa. I don't view everybody who disagrees with homosexuality as "hate mongers". Where we disagree is on the point that these same groups which are a minority of Americans, by the way, somehow feel they have the right or the "moral authority" to determine what is acceptable or unacceptable
ALL major and credible medical and psychiatric associations have categorically rejected that homosexuality is a "mental illness" or that it can or should be "cured".
The problem is, somewhere along the line, misguided and misled "christians" (like the Westboro Baptist Church lunatics, for example) have decided that the rest of the world should blindly follow the same illogical and hipocritical viewpoints that they have. I use the term in quotation marks to differentiate them from actual Christians, who more closely live up to the ideals of Christ.
We could go into a very long discussion about just how often the Bible is misinterpreted, but, that would be pointless here. I would suggest watching the documentary I cited: For the Bible Tells Me So
There are some people that still believe that blacks are "sub-human" and deserve to be treated as such. Should we as a society be forced to accept that viewpoint as well? Slavery is condoned and acceptable in the Bible. Should we as a society repeal the 13th Amendment simply to appease those that want slavery to contiue, because the Bible says that it is ok?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaBee
I thought in a free society you were free to disagree? I find the KKK and Neo-Nazis abhorrent; but I recognize they have a right to exist and be wrong and express their opinions without being shouted down or being charged with "hate speech".
You are allowed to disagree. You are not allowed to infringe upon other peoples basic human rights nor legislate their civil rights based on such discriminatory viewpoints. How many Neo-nazi groups or KKK members who have determined public policy lately?(Well, I guess some of the evangelical "christian" far right wing of the Republican party might fit into these categories.)
P.S. Please don't view this post as an attack on you in anyway. It's not. This tends to be an emotional subject where somebody eventually feels "attacked". Your opinions were stated in a respectable way, and I hope that mine are taken that way as well.
BVH - This happens to everyone that doesn't "fit in" with what's "normal". I feel for you that you don't ask to be placed in that situation most times. I think that most Americans (I could be wrong) wouldn't care if you said "Yes, my partner will be coming."
You hit the nail of my point on the head: The definition of "normal" is where the problem lies. Who is anybody to say what is "normal" or who gets to decide "normality" for any of us? There are FAR more "abnormal" people than "normal" in the world, imo. LOL
I see what you are saying, I'm just clarifying the finer points of the argument.
Although I am gay, I do not walk around saying "Hi! I'm a gay American, nice to meet you." nor do I WANT to be treated in any other way than equally. However, gays are constantly being forced to "explain" myself to others.
When it comes to work functions for example: "Will your wife/GF be attending?" At that point, I have 2 choices: 1. Lie, and say I don't have a GF/Wife; 2. Tell the "truth" and open myself up for judgement. My point is that sometimes people don't have the choice of whether or not to box themselves. Often times, it's done for us.
BVH, great points. You deftly articulated the "ism" that still exists, while being able to take it out of the Black/White paradigm. As well, you quite handily explained why certain "ism's" aren't merely a crutch that people lean on, but rather a barrier that they must overcome.
BVH, great points. You deftly articulated the "ism" that still exists, while being able to take it out of the Black/White paradigm. As well, you quite handily explained why certain "ism's" aren't merely a crutch that people lean on, but rather a barrier that they must overcome.
Thank you for the compliment. That's precisely what I was hoping would come across.
I'm missing your point..you've shown examples of where people DON'T get along....where are the examples of places they DO? (I assume you don't mean the USA). I can name MANY multicultural societies that ultimately failed because they were "done in" by failing to control their diversity...but I can think of very FEW places where SOME ethnic group or another, doesn't claim to be 'left out' of the benefits of society--and yes, that EVEN includes Canada, nice as it is...
I'd say the Netherlands is a good example. Here Christians, Jews, Muslims, atheists, the native Dutch and 'new' Dutch generally get along fine. Although the gay rights here in Holland still needs improvement, but at least the homosexuals and lesbians can marry officially and are protected against discrimination.
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Although the gay rights here in Holland still needs improvement, but at least the homosexuals and lesbians can marry officially and are protected against discrimination.
