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Further, that 20% of physics doctorates awarded each year are obtained by women is too high of a number to account for random outliers, wouldn't you think? I cannot imagine a situation where any of us could use that kind of thinking at work, for example. Could you? You have a hypothesis that you cannot explain mechanistically, but one of the ways you test your hypothesis is doctoral degrees awarded by gender and 20% of the time you have these outliers. I'm no statistician, but would that fly?
That's for sure. As noted previously and illustrated again by this paragraph, you seem to lack even the most basic grasp of the subject and therefore cannot comprehend the relevant arguments in this debate. Nobody here thinks women are incapable of doing physics or that women who work in physics are "random outliers". It is simply the case that, on average, women are less interested in physics than men.
I don't think you have been following the conversation. I am not saying that men do not do better in STEM. They clearly do. What I'm talking about with a number of posters is why. This conversation is about the fact that some believe women are innately intellectually inferior in maths/sciences. They also believe minorities are innately not "wired" for it as well...all based on anecdotal personal experience. That is the message here. That has been the historical societal message as well.
Given that you have not followed along well enough to actually understand the discussion and then followed that up with telling me A. not to be so emotional and B. find a new profession is not only blanket sexism, but an example of what I'm talking about.
Saying that men are innately better than women at math and science doesn't imply that all men are better than all women in math and science. This seems to be the issue you have a difficult time coming to terms with. Groups are made up of individuals, but the group does not define the individual. Horses are innately larger than dogs. You could also say that Great Danes are innately larger than miniature horses, but that doesn't make the first statement any less true.
I brought this up previously because you attempted to refute the large body of evidence which shows that men outperform women in math and sciences by pointing to the lone exception of Finland in the PISA, which showed to me that you don't understand averages. You have yet to lead me to believe that you do.
1987, a very bad neighborhood in Israel, poor immigrant single mom from USSR, 12 yo kid. Looks bad, right? And still she was able to buy me a pc so I could learn programming. The programming material I got from the library.
So you move. I moved from Israel to Western Europe and then to USA to pursue my goals.
I don't buy it. If this kind of thing discourage you, you are not made from material that can work 16 hours straight to achieve a deadline.
So they are weak. We don't need week people in STEM.
My literature teacher told me that I know nothing in literature. few years later I sent him my book that was published in a very serious publishing house.
If this kind of things discourage you, you don't deserve a high STEM salary. You can flip burgers instead.
Most people working at a typical job aren't extraordinary humans. But most did have access to the right skills and opportunities at the right moment. There are plenty of people capable of "STEM" jobs given the right encouragement and the right opportunities.
I am glad there are programs like Hack Reactor, where people looking for a second career can learn to code. And more companies are open to hiring people with these more diverse backgrounds.
Most people working at a typical job aren't extraordinary humans. But most did have access to the right skills and opportunities at the right moment. There are plenty of people capable of "STEM" jobs given the right encouragement and the right opportunities.
I am glad there are programs like Hack Reactor, where people looking for a second career can learn to code. And more companies are open to hiring people with these more diverse backgrounds.
Companies should be open to hiring people without regard to race or gender. They should not, in foolish attempts to meet arbitrary quotas and advance social engineering goals, hire based on race or gender as is proposed in the OP. How is the distinction here not obvious?
Companies should be open to hiring people without regard to race or gender. They should not hire based on race or gender in foolish attempts to meet arbitrary quotas and advance social engineering goals as is proposed in the OP. How is the distinction here not obvious?
But they aren't really. Or don't try very hard. My company hires loads of white makes because the primary source of applicants are ft referrals from existing employees who are mostly white males.
Why would it be discriminatory, in addition to recruiting at schools that graduate mostly white engineers, going to the ones that graduate more women too?
The door is closed, and a few small changes would create a more diverse pool of candidates. L
Looking outside of your typical circles is not lowering the bar.
But they aren't really. Or don't try very hard. My company hires loads of white makes because the primary source of applicants are ft referrals from existing employees who are mostly white males.
Why would it be discriminatory, in addition to recruiting at schools that graduate mostly white engineers, going to the ones that graduate more women too?
The door is closed, and a few small changes would create a more diverse pool of candidates. L
Looking outside of your typical circles is not lowering the bar.
My company actively seeks out talented women but there are very few women who work in engineering. That's not to say that there aren't some. I know a woman engineer who went on to start her own business and because of this, her company is favored for contracts with the government as a woman-owned business. The business environment favors women and minorities. My company often has to partner up with women and minority-owned businesses just to get certain contracts.
The idea that the door is closed to women is obscene considering that companies go out of their way to promote and encourage woman and minority participation. Governments (federal, state and municipal) have laws in place that give a competitive edge to women and minorities.
But they aren't really. Or don't try very hard. My company hires loads of white makes because the primary source of applicants are ft referrals from existing employees who are mostly white males.
Why would it be discriminatory, in addition to recruiting at schools that graduate mostly white engineers, going to the ones that graduate more women too?
The door is closed, and a few small changes would create a more diverse pool of candidates. L
Looking outside of your typical circles is not lowering the bar.
Jews in Russia had maximum quotas on accepting to universities. In some places Jews were not accepted at all. Only Christians could be accepted. Few years after the quotas were removed, they were over-represented by far in STEM and other good professions.
Do you really think that the situation of Jews in USSR was better than the situation of women in USA? Cmmon....
My company actively seeks out talented women but there are very few women who work in engineering. That's not to say that there aren't some. I know a woman engineer who went on to start her own business and because of this, her company is favored for contracts with the government as a woman-owned business. The business environment favors women and minorities. My company often has to partner up with women and minority-owned businesses just to get certain contracts.
The idea that the door is closed to women is obscene considering that companies go out of their way to promote and encourage woman and minority participation. Governments (federal, state and municipal) have laws in place that give a competitive edge to women and minorities.
And loads of companies get no revenue from the government and this isn't a concern. Ahem Silicon Valley is a prime example. Only super established companies have government contracts. So they don't care and have no need to care. And practice allows them to ignore it altogether until they get to around 120 employees. By then the culture is pretty set.
Jews in Russia had maximum quotas on accepting to universities. In some places Jews were not accepted at all. Only Christians could be accepted. Few years after the quotas were removed, they were over-represented by far in STEM and other good professions.
Do you really think that the situation of Jews in USSR was better than the situation of women in USA? Cmmon....
My experiences as a black woman in the US differs from the generic female experience.
We are also not trying to play oppression olympics in this thread.
I applaud GE for making a goal of hiring more women. And as I mentioned earlier, I hope they also build a retention plan along side this initiative.
Having your colleagues assume you are dumb, assign you crappy projects and decide you lowered the bar by joining the team doesn't actually keep those future women at GE.
Jews in Russia had maximum quotas on accepting to universities. In some places Jews were not accepted at all. Only Christians could be accepted. Few years after the quotas were removed, they were over-represented by far in STEM and other good professions.
Do you really think that the situation of Jews in USSR was better than the situation of women in USA? Cmmon....
Ahh... er... no.
Not "Christians," since USSR was officially an atheist state.
The Jews were not accepted NOT because of their religion (some didn't have any at all, ) but because the Soviet gov. didn't want them to get educated in STEM and to get the jobs pertaining to state secrets, because Jews were prone to leave the country...
(Sorry for interruption.)
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